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by tastyface 1y ago

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samdoesnothing 1y ago
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- tastyface 1y ago
  Except studies have repeatedly shown that there is practically no voter fraud, because it's pretty easy to detect and people generally don't want to commit felonies for zero personal gain. *You* show me the proof of widespread voter fraud.
  - samdoesnothing 1y ago
    I don't trust any "study" on this topic because of how highly politicised it is. Is there anything stopping a person from going to a polling station, writing a fake name, and walking out with zero risk? No? Then you must assume there is some amount of fraud.
    - tastyface 1y ago
      Have you never actually voted? You can't just come in and "write a fake name." People easily get caught for trying to do shit like this. If you can't trust "any study," then you're going 100% by feels (and whatever Fox news is frothing about).
    - fzeroracer 1y ago
      Do you think when you write a fake name they just thumbs up it and don't bother validating anything? Like I'm curious: Can you explain the process as it happens when you go to vote all the way through tallying your vote?
    - triceratops 1y ago
      Where are the arrests and charges? If it's that bad we should see some people in jail by now.
      - samdoesnothing 1y ago
        [flagged]
        triceratops 1y ago
        Is it? Walk us through your "write a fake name" technique. How does it work? Does <non citizen> walk into a polling location and say they're <registered voter>? What happens if <actual registered voter> has already voted? Or <actual registered voter> shows up later? The poll workers will say "But you already voted". That should immediately result in a criminal investigation. If it doesn't, why the hell not? If it does, there should be numbers so what are they? This is a serious crime. Or is the claim that a non-citizen fraudulently gets on the voter roll as a citizen? If so, how? Forged birth certificate? Passport? All of them had perfect forgeries? No one got caught? It's a bit far-fetched. Again, where are the numbers? And finally, what's the point? What's the incentive for a non-citizen to commit such a serious crime? Our elected representatives rarely do anything we think is useful. Spreading the idea that voter fraud is easy or widespread, without evidence, is corrosive to democracy. By all means require id to vote. It's a great idea. But also ensure that everyone who is eligible to vote can easily get id.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- triceratops 1y ago
  > it's pretty obvious that without any need to prove who you are there is going to be plenty of voter fraud It's not obvious at all. People mostly hate voting. Nearly half the people who are eligible to vote don't vote at all.
jimbo808 1y ago
If you can't even prove you're an American by providing basic identification, you shouldn't be allowed vote. Democracy requires a system of voting that is trustworthy. Allowing people to vote based on who they say they are is not conducive to a trustworthy election.
- tastyface 1y ago
  Fine. First hand out IDs to every single person, for free and without forcing them to spend hours on obscure bureaucratic processes, then mandate voter ID when there's close to 100% coverage. It's the only way to be fair. Otherwise, the only thing you're doing is disenfranchising the most vulnerable while changing almost nothing about election security in practice. (Studies have repeatedly found that voter fraud is practically nonexistent.)
- neaden 1y ago
  But it works fine. There have been extensive efforts to find people voting illegally and it turns up a small handful across the entire country, and many of those are things like returning a recently dead persons mail in ballot that voter ID wouldn't even help with. The fact is that all the evidence says an incredibly small number of people vote who are not legally eligible to do so, and only a small proportion of those are non-citizen immigrants.
  - jimbo808 1y ago
    It doesn't work if a large portion of the country believes that this issue is causing voter fraud. It doesn't have to be really happening, it just has to be possible and perceived to be happening. We can easily fix that.
    - tastyface 1y ago
      Here's the way I see it: 1. Right-wing think tanks spend a bunch of time workshopping ways to gain a few extra % points in elections. Turns out that poor voters without ID vote Democrat more often than not. 2. Those think tanks then disseminate FUD to Fox news and similar outlets that there's widespread voter fraud, illegals voting, etc.!!! 3. Some people get spooked and start losing faith in elections. 4. Voter ID laws pass. Swaths of poor people (majority Democrats) lose the ability to vote and aren't able to spend hours getting IDs. Meanwhile, entrenched powers reduce funding and opening times for offices that can assist with this. 5. Single-party rule gets a bit more entrenched in this country. The way to address lies and propaganda isn't to just give in to those lies. Any voter ID law must come with a precondition that *everyone* who wants an ID can easily get one, preferably by mail and with about 15 minutes of effort. (Plus accommodations for people who are homeless, lack a birth certificate, etc.) Without such a precondition, the true purpose of these efforts is obvious.
fourseventy 1y ago
[flagged]
ImJamal 1y ago
There are people pushing for non-citizens to vote in non-federal elections. One example is New York City where they literally passed a law to allow it. It was struck down because it violated New York's constitution though...
- triceratops 1y ago
  It's not exactly unprecedented and also orthogonal to voter id laws. Scotland, for example, allows foreigners to vote in local elections [1] and makes photo id mandatory [2]. 1. https://www.mygov.scot/voting-in-elections-in-scotland https://www.mygov.scot/voting-in-elections-in-scotland 2. https://www.mygov.scot/voting-in-elections-in-scotland/how-to-vote https://www.mygov.scot/voting-in-elections-in-scotland/how-t...
  - ImJamal 1y ago
    I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm saying the person I was responding to was wrong. He said it is fox news propaganda to suggest people want non-citizens to vote illegally. People in NYC did just that.
    - tastyface 1y ago
      It sounds like some people in NYC wanted non-citizens to vote *legally* on local issues, and were prevented from doing so in any case. How is that in any way the same thing?

[flagged]

samdoesnothing 1y ago

[flagged]

tastyface 1y ago
Except studies have repeatedly shown that there is practically no voter fraud, because it's pretty easy to detect and people generally don't want to commit felonies for zero personal gain. *You* show me the proof of widespread voter fraud.
- samdoesnothing 1y ago
  I don't trust any "study" on this topic because of how highly politicised it is. Is there anything stopping a person from going to a polling station, writing a fake name, and walking out with zero risk? No? Then you must assume there is some amount of fraud.
  - tastyface 1y ago
    Have you never actually voted? You can't just come in and "write a fake name." People easily get caught for trying to do shit like this. If you can't trust "any study," then you're going 100% by feels (and whatever Fox news is frothing about).
  - fzeroracer 1y ago
    Do you think when you write a fake name they just thumbs up it and don't bother validating anything? Like I'm curious: Can you explain the process as it happens when you go to vote all the way through tallying your vote?
  - triceratops 1y ago
    Where are the arrests and charges? If it's that bad we should see some people in jail by now.
    - samdoesnothing 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - triceratops 1y ago
        Is it? Walk us through your "write a fake name" technique. How does it work? Does <non citizen> walk into a polling location and say they're <registered voter>? What happens if <actual registered voter> has already voted? Or <actual registered voter> shows up later? The poll workers will say "But you already voted". That should immediately result in a criminal investigation. If it doesn't, why the hell not? If it does, there should be numbers so what are they? This is a serious crime. Or is the claim that a non-citizen fraudulently gets on the voter roll as a citizen? If so, how? Forged birth certificate? Passport? All of them had perfect forgeries? No one got caught? It's a bit far-fetched. Again, where are the numbers? And finally, what's the point? What's the incentive for a non-citizen to commit such a serious crime? Our elected representatives rarely do anything we think is useful. Spreading the idea that voter fraud is easy or widespread, without evidence, is corrosive to democracy. By all means require id to vote. It's a great idea. But also ensure that everyone who is eligible to vote can easily get id.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
triceratops 1y ago
> it's pretty obvious that without any need to prove who you are there is going to be plenty of voter fraud It's not obvious at all. People mostly hate voting. Nearly half the people who are eligible to vote don't vote at all.

jimbo808 1y ago

If you can't even prove you're an American by providing basic identification, you shouldn't be allowed vote. Democracy requires a system of voting that is trustworthy. Allowing people to vote based on who they say they are is not conducive to a trustworthy election.

tastyface 1y ago
Fine. First hand out IDs to every single person, for free and without forcing them to spend hours on obscure bureaucratic processes, then mandate voter ID when there's close to 100% coverage. It's the only way to be fair. Otherwise, the only thing you're doing is disenfranchising the most vulnerable while changing almost nothing about election security in practice. (Studies have repeatedly found that voter fraud is practically nonexistent.)
neaden 1y ago
But it works fine. There have been extensive efforts to find people voting illegally and it turns up a small handful across the entire country, and many of those are things like returning a recently dead persons mail in ballot that voter ID wouldn't even help with. The fact is that all the evidence says an incredibly small number of people vote who are not legally eligible to do so, and only a small proportion of those are non-citizen immigrants.
- jimbo808 1y ago
  It doesn't work if a large portion of the country believes that this issue is causing voter fraud. It doesn't have to be really happening, it just has to be possible and perceived to be happening. We can easily fix that.
  - tastyface 1y ago
    Here's the way I see it: 1. Right-wing think tanks spend a bunch of time workshopping ways to gain a few extra % points in elections. Turns out that poor voters without ID vote Democrat more often than not. 2. Those think tanks then disseminate FUD to Fox news and similar outlets that there's widespread voter fraud, illegals voting, etc.!!! 3. Some people get spooked and start losing faith in elections. 4. Voter ID laws pass. Swaths of poor people (majority Democrats) lose the ability to vote and aren't able to spend hours getting IDs. Meanwhile, entrenched powers reduce funding and opening times for offices that can assist with this. 5. Single-party rule gets a bit more entrenched in this country. The way to address lies and propaganda isn't to just give in to those lies. Any voter ID law must come with a precondition that *everyone* who wants an ID can easily get one, preferably by mail and with about 15 minutes of effort. (Plus accommodations for people who are homeless, lack a birth certificate, etc.) Without such a precondition, the true purpose of these efforts is obvious.

fourseventy 1y ago

[flagged]

ImJamal 1y ago

There are people pushing for non-citizens to vote in non-federal elections. One example is New York City where they literally passed a law to allow it. It was struck down because it violated New York's constitution though...

triceratops 1y ago
It's not exactly unprecedented and also orthogonal to voter id laws. Scotland, for example, allows foreigners to vote in local elections [1] and makes photo id mandatory [2]. 1. https://www.mygov.scot/voting-in-elections-in-scotland https://www.mygov.scot/voting-in-elections-in-scotland 2. https://www.mygov.scot/voting-in-elections-in-scotland/how-to-vote https://www.mygov.scot/voting-in-elections-in-scotland/how-t...
- ImJamal 1y ago
  I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm saying the person I was responding to was wrong. He said it is fox news propaganda to suggest people want non-citizens to vote illegally. People in NYC did just that.
  - tastyface 1y ago
    It sounds like some people in NYC wanted non-citizens to vote *legally* on local issues, and were prevented from doing so in any case. How is that in any way the same thing?