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Violence has been used for good ends such as deposing monarchies and ending slavery. Marx argues that capitalists are akin to the new kings. Witnessing billio

Violence has been used for good ends such as deposing monarchies and ending slavery. Marx argues that capitalists are akin to the new kings. Witnessing billionaires funding the destruction of democracy, I wouldn’t say he’s wrong. And you refer to Soviet Russia as if that’s supposed to represent socialism and communism. In fact there are many different kinds of socialists and communists, many who support democracy and oppose authoritarian governments. In fact many such people opposed the Bolsheviks and were killed by them. It’s simply not true that being socialist or communist entails supporting totalitarian government.

spwa4 1y ago
You know as well as I do that when Marx discussed "capitalists" he did not mean the rich. He meant what we now call the middle class. Managers. Engineers. Store owners. (Small) company owners. Factory owners. Smaller landlords. Perhaps upper middle class, but not the real rich, the families. He saw what everyone else in their time (correctly) saw: that larger land owners were mostly outside of cities, and were well on the way to inevitable bankruptcy. That the uber-rich are very different, and aren't rapidly bankrupting themselves is not something Marx foresaw. Only the governments themselves, who are of course also very, very, rich would retain their wealth. And quite a few governments in his time were individuals or families, but he didn't see them as the enemy, kind of, but not as the "source" of the evil of capitalism. Of course, communists aren't against a very, very rich government. The Soviets initially offered to make Tsar Nicolas II the leader of international socialism. Only when he kept refusing did he become the enemy. And then the "that wasn't true communism" argument! Thank you. I kind of agree: most other communists were MUCH worse than the Soviets, and especially lacked most of the redeeming qualities the Soviets retained from imperial Russia. In fact, I miss that about the Soviets. The Soviets were going to conquer Europe, provide housing and jobs for everyone, and get everyone to work and back each day on rocket powered trams. Seriously. Today's socialists just seem to want to destroy everything, which will then encourage Gaia to save the world and care for everyone. The Soviets were very much going to exploit nature to make everyone rich. Never mind that even the ancient Greeks knew better: the godess Gaia is a Titan who massacred, and then ate people. Men, women, children. Especially children. She was the embodiment of natural disasters, of the primal, absolute force of nature. She killed to save nature, true. But also just for fun, because it is her nature. Especially children. Especially lost children. She was like almost all Titans: considered completely amoral, not necessarily evil, but she needed to be fought, even destroyed, not for fun, because otherwise a LOT of people would die.
- skinnymuch 1y ago
  You are making so much stuff up. My god it’s insane. Then you act like people haven’t read the super short Manifesto so you can continue your lies
  - ath3nd 1y ago
    He is trolling to provoke reactions. Mods don't do anything to anyone who spews pro-capitalist and Zionist propaganda, so better not engage.
    - skinnymuch 1y ago
      Of course they don’t. If anything someone like me will get scolded for doing a low quality comment attacking him Have you seen how YC higher ups talk about capitalism, elitism, etc? Culture comes from top down and within Silicon Valley tech elite it is practically a monoculture. For that specific guy. It’s weird he invoked such a short text that he definitely didn’t read or hasn’t read in a long time. So easy to respond to that. That’s why I responded.
- grafmax 1y ago
  Quite a lot of factual inaccuracies here. > He meant what we now call the middle class. Capitalists according to Marx are those that own the means of production, not the middle class. > larger land owners were mostly outside of cities, and were well on the way to inevitable bankruptcy He saw them as a declining class that would eventually merge with the industrial bourgeoisie. He didn’t predict their inevitable bankruptcy. > quite a few governments in his time were individuals or families, but he didn't see them as the enemy, kind of, but not as the "source" of the evil of capitalism Again, inaccurate. His view is that the state is an apparatus of the capitalist class structured to protect its property and interests. The state and the uber-rich are the primary enemies of the working class, in his view. > Soviets initially offered to make Tsar Nicolas II the leader of international socialism. Only when he kept refusing did he become the enemy. Citation needed. Are you just fabricating things? The Bolsheviks ideology was based on the idea that there would be a proletarian revolution that would dismantle the old capitalist and aristocratic order, which the Tsar represented. > that wasn't true communism" argument! There are many different varieties of socialism and communism. In fact many societies long into pre-recorded history have been peaceful, leaderless and without money - communist. Yet it would be a mistake to call those societies Stalinist for example. > get everyone to work and back each day on rocket powered trams. Seriously. Soviet plans were never that fantastical. Fabrication. > the godess Gaia is a Titan who massacred, and then ate people. Men, women, children. Especially children Gaia isn’t typically represented that way. She is not a Titan but mother of the Titans. Maybe you are thinking of Kronos.
deleted 1y ago
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ryandv 1y ago
> Violence has been used for good ends such as deposing monarchies and ending slavery. Under this paradigm it's miraculous that we tolerate hundreds of years of oppression and racism from the whites peaceably. If you call for bloody revolution and simultaneously identify yourselves as the villains, don't be surprised when we come busting down your doors.

spwa4 1y ago

You know as well as I do that when Marx discussed "capitalists" he did not mean the rich. He meant what we now call the middle class. Managers. Engineers. Store owners. (Small) company owners. Factory owners. Smaller landlords. Perhaps upper middle class, but not the real rich, the families. He saw what everyone else in their time (correctly) saw: that larger land owners were mostly outside of cities, and were well on the way to inevitable bankruptcy. That the uber-rich are very different, and aren't rapidly bankrupting themselves is not something Marx foresaw. Only the governments themselves, who are of course also very, very, rich would retain their wealth. And quite a few governments in his time were individuals or families, but he didn't see them as the enemy, kind of, but not as the "source" of the evil of capitalism. Of course, communists aren't against a very, very rich government. The Soviets initially offered to make Tsar Nicolas II the leader of international socialism. Only when he kept refusing did he become the enemy. And then the "that wasn't true communism" argument! Thank you. I kind of agree: most other communists were MUCH worse than the Soviets, and especially lacked most of the redeeming qualities the Soviets retained from imperial Russia. In fact, I miss that about the Soviets. The Soviets were going to conquer Europe, provide housing and jobs for everyone, and get everyone to work and back each day on rocket powered trams. Seriously. Today's socialists just seem to want to destroy everything, which will then encourage Gaia to save the world and care for everyone. The Soviets were very much going to exploit nature to make everyone rich. Never mind that even the ancient Greeks knew better: the godess Gaia is a Titan who massacred, and then ate people. Men, women, children. Especially children. She was the embodiment of natural disasters, of the primal, absolute force of nature. She killed to save nature, true. But also just for fun, because it is her nature. Especially children. Especially lost children. She was like almost all Titans: considered completely amoral, not necessarily evil, but she needed to be fought, even destroyed, not for fun, because otherwise a LOT of people would die.

skinnymuch 1y ago
You are making so much stuff up. My god it’s insane. Then you act like people haven’t read the super short Manifesto so you can continue your lies
- ath3nd 1y ago
  He is trolling to provoke reactions. Mods don't do anything to anyone who spews pro-capitalist and Zionist propaganda, so better not engage.
  - skinnymuch 1y ago
    Of course they don’t. If anything someone like me will get scolded for doing a low quality comment attacking him Have you seen how YC higher ups talk about capitalism, elitism, etc? Culture comes from top down and within Silicon Valley tech elite it is practically a monoculture. For that specific guy. It’s weird he invoked such a short text that he definitely didn’t read or hasn’t read in a long time. So easy to respond to that. That’s why I responded.
grafmax 1y ago
Quite a lot of factual inaccuracies here. > He meant what we now call the middle class. Capitalists according to Marx are those that own the means of production, not the middle class. > larger land owners were mostly outside of cities, and were well on the way to inevitable bankruptcy He saw them as a declining class that would eventually merge with the industrial bourgeoisie. He didn’t predict their inevitable bankruptcy. > quite a few governments in his time were individuals or families, but he didn't see them as the enemy, kind of, but not as the "source" of the evil of capitalism Again, inaccurate. His view is that the state is an apparatus of the capitalist class structured to protect its property and interests. The state and the uber-rich are the primary enemies of the working class, in his view. > Soviets initially offered to make Tsar Nicolas II the leader of international socialism. Only when he kept refusing did he become the enemy. Citation needed. Are you just fabricating things? The Bolsheviks ideology was based on the idea that there would be a proletarian revolution that would dismantle the old capitalist and aristocratic order, which the Tsar represented. > that wasn't true communism" argument! There are many different varieties of socialism and communism. In fact many societies long into pre-recorded history have been peaceful, leaderless and without money - communist. Yet it would be a mistake to call those societies Stalinist for example. > get everyone to work and back each day on rocket powered trams. Seriously. Soviet plans were never that fantastical. Fabrication. > the godess Gaia is a Titan who massacred, and then ate people. Men, women, children. Especially children Gaia isn’t typically represented that way. She is not a Titan but mother of the Titans. Maybe you are thinking of Kronos.

deleted 1y ago

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ryandv 1y ago

> Violence has been used for good ends such as deposing monarchies and ending slavery. Under this paradigm it's miraculous that we tolerate hundreds of years of oppression and racism from the whites peaceably. If you call for bloody revolution and simultaneously identify yourselves as the villains, don't be surprised when we come busting down your doors.