7 ms·

Safari is not a good browser, by design, because it's in Apple's interest to cripple the Web as a platform. If they want their browser to be actually competitiv

by meibo 1y ago

Safari is not a good browser, by design, because it's in Apple's interest to cripple the Web as a platform. If they want their browser to be actually competitive instead of forcing people to use it, they should make a good browser. That is markets working as they are supposed to.

perfectviking 1y ago
What is your argument that Safari is not a good browser? Using market forces to encourage more consolidation into a single engine is *bad*.
- overfeed 1y ago
  > What is your argument that Safari is not a good browser? Safari is often the hold-out on implementing features[1] that would be useful to users - presumably because it would make web apps viable on iOS, and compete with App store apps where Apple takes a 30% cut > Using market forces to encourage more consolidation into a single engine is bad. Competition on a level playing-field is not bad, even if you dislike the superior product (as determined by the free hand of the market.) 1. If memory serves: various APIs useful for PWAs were delayed or kneecapped on Safari
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- fsflover 1y ago
  > What is your argument that Safari is not a good browser? It doesn't support Ublock Origin.
  - rstupek 1y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44795825 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44795825 ?
    - fsflover 1y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44796762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44796762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44804921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44804921
- nness 1y ago
  Safari is often regarded as the "new Internet Explorer" by front-end developers because of how much is unsupported or has to be worked-around...
- pton_xd 1y ago
  > What is your argument that Safari is not a good browser? https://ios404.com/ https://ios404.com/ Safari is missing many performance and device-related features that would allow you to create a compelling web application and bypass the App store. I tried once, you run into the most unexpected roadblocks and come to the conclusion "I have to release this as an App." Well... guess why.
  - AlexandrB 1y ago
    About half that list is marketing for why I use Safari instead of something else on my laptop.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - youngtaff 1y ago
    Several of the 'missing' features listed on that site are contentious e.g. WebUSB
  - alistairSH 1y ago
    About a quarter of that list is stuff I don't want a browser futzing with... volume control, autofocus, background sync (assuming this has huge battery implications), WebUSB, WebNotifications, and a few others. That said, about half the list appears to be stuff I don't care about one way or the other. At least not without spending way more time researching those CSS elements than I care to invest. And I'd be totally fine with an "Allow Alternate Browser Features: Y/N" setting or similar, as long as it defaulted to the current behavior (locked down Safari only).
    - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
      > About a quarter of that list is stuff I don't want a browser futzing with... volume control, autofocus, background sync (assuming this has huge battery implications), WebUSB, WebNotifications, and a few others. Yeah, looks like a nice checklist of things to turn off to me…
tempodox 1y ago
> markets working as they are supposed to. Where Apple is doing everything they can to make that “market” work in their interests instead of as it is supposed to from a user perspective. And when you don't have a choice, it's not really a market either.
radiofreeeuropa 1y ago
Counterpoint: Safari is by far the best mainstream browser, because it's got the only engine that gives half a shit about battery life, and because they push back on shitty features Google wants to make "standard" so they can trash my UX and the computing ecosystem even more.
- pornel 1y ago
  There's a grain of truth to it — Apple has learned from Microsoft's history that making the whole browser shitty is too obvious and annoys users. Apple was smart enough to keep user-visible parts of the browser in a good shape, while also dragging their feet on all the Web platform features that could endanger the App Store cash cow.
  - radiofreeeuropa 1y ago
    I don't want web apps on my phone (or, in an ideal world, anywhere else) so that's also a good thing. If they're not viable, it forces developers to make real apps or else just make a web page instead of whatever awful-UX nonsense they were planning.
    - kelthuzad 1y ago
      >I don't want web apps on my phone (or, in an ideal world, anywhere else) so that's also a good thing. If they're not viable, it forces developers to make real apps or else just make a web page instead of whatever awful-UX nonsense they were planning. Well what you personally want is irrelevant to the law and what regulators judge to be unlawful, so that's the real good thing. >If they're not viable, it forces developers to make real apps or else just make a web page instead of whatever awful-UX nonsense they were planning. They are perfectly viable and it has nothing to do with UX, but you have already exposed your bias and made clear that you are arguing in bad faith by spreading misinformation in your other comments.
    - const_cast 1y ago
      90% of real apps are 95% web views. Let go ahead and be for real. Even on desktop most apps are Electron these days.
atommclain 1y ago
It's funny, I prefer to use Safari on iOS instead of native apps because I have more control over shaping my experience (through user scripts and custom css) and Apple's focus on user privacy which may be all lip service, but at least it's part of their talking points; something I don't see with Chrome. I'm sure Safari sucks to support for web developers and is missing a lot of cool apis, but I'm willing to take those tradeoffs for the increased privacy I get as a result. That being said, I do think Apple should allow third party browser engines.

by meibo 1y ago

perfectviking 1y ago

What is your argument that Safari is not a good browser? Using market forces to encourage more consolidation into a single engine is *bad*.

overfeed 1y ago
> What is your argument that Safari is not a good browser? Safari is often the hold-out on implementing features[1] that would be useful to users - presumably because it would make web apps viable on iOS, and compete with App store apps where Apple takes a 30% cut > Using market forces to encourage more consolidation into a single engine is bad. Competition on a level playing-field is not bad, even if you dislike the superior product (as determined by the free hand of the market.) 1. If memory serves: various APIs useful for PWAs were delayed or kneecapped on Safari
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
fsflover 1y ago
> What is your argument that Safari is not a good browser? It doesn't support Ublock Origin.
- rstupek 1y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44795825 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44795825 ?
  - fsflover 1y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44796762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44796762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44804921 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44804921
nness 1y ago
Safari is often regarded as the "new Internet Explorer" by front-end developers because of how much is unsupported or has to be worked-around...
pton_xd 1y ago
> What is your argument that Safari is not a good browser? https://ios404.com/ https://ios404.com/ Safari is missing many performance and device-related features that would allow you to create a compelling web application and bypass the App store. I tried once, you run into the most unexpected roadblocks and come to the conclusion "I have to release this as an App." Well... guess why.
- AlexandrB 1y ago
  About half that list is marketing for why I use Safari instead of something else on my laptop.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- youngtaff 1y ago
  Several of the 'missing' features listed on that site are contentious e.g. WebUSB
- alistairSH 1y ago
  About a quarter of that list is stuff I don't want a browser futzing with... volume control, autofocus, background sync (assuming this has huge battery implications), WebUSB, WebNotifications, and a few others. That said, about half the list appears to be stuff I don't care about one way or the other. At least not without spending way more time researching those CSS elements than I care to invest. And I'd be totally fine with an "Allow Alternate Browser Features: Y/N" setting or similar, as long as it defaulted to the current behavior (locked down Safari only).
  - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    > About a quarter of that list is stuff I don't want a browser futzing with... volume control, autofocus, background sync (assuming this has huge battery implications), WebUSB, WebNotifications, and a few others. Yeah, looks like a nice checklist of things to turn off to me…

tempodox 1y ago

> markets working as they are supposed to. Where Apple is doing everything they can to make that “market” work in their interests instead of as it is supposed to from a user perspective. And when you don't have a choice, it's not really a market either.

radiofreeeuropa 1y ago

Counterpoint: Safari is by far the best mainstream browser, because it's got the only engine that gives half a shit about battery life, and because they push back on shitty features Google wants to make "standard" so they can trash my UX and the computing ecosystem even more.

pornel 1y ago
There's a grain of truth to it — Apple has learned from Microsoft's history that making the whole browser shitty is too obvious and annoys users. Apple was smart enough to keep user-visible parts of the browser in a good shape, while also dragging their feet on all the Web platform features that could endanger the App Store cash cow.
- radiofreeeuropa 1y ago
  I don't want web apps on my phone (or, in an ideal world, anywhere else) so that's also a good thing. If they're not viable, it forces developers to make real apps or else just make a web page instead of whatever awful-UX nonsense they were planning.
  - kelthuzad 1y ago
    >I don't want web apps on my phone (or, in an ideal world, anywhere else) so that's also a good thing. If they're not viable, it forces developers to make real apps or else just make a web page instead of whatever awful-UX nonsense they were planning. Well what you personally want is irrelevant to the law and what regulators judge to be unlawful, so that's the real good thing. >If they're not viable, it forces developers to make real apps or else just make a web page instead of whatever awful-UX nonsense they were planning. They are perfectly viable and it has nothing to do with UX, but you have already exposed your bias and made clear that you are arguing in bad faith by spreading misinformation in your other comments.
  - const_cast 1y ago
    90% of real apps are 95% web views. Let go ahead and be for real. Even on desktop most apps are Electron these days.

atommclain 1y ago

It's funny, I prefer to use Safari on iOS instead of native apps because I have more control over shaping my experience (through user scripts and custom css) and Apple's focus on user privacy which may be all lip service, but at least it's part of their talking points; something I don't see with Chrome. I'm sure Safari sucks to support for web developers and is missing a lot of cool apis, but I'm willing to take those tradeoffs for the increased privacy I get as a result. That being said, I do think Apple should allow third party browser engines.