4 ms·

These examples show that we have a serious social issue, and it's not limited to teachers. People misuse LLMs. We engineers understand that LLMs are products un

by ozgung 1y ago

These examples show that we have a serious social issue, and it's not limited to teachers. People misuse LLMs. We engineers understand that LLMs are products under development. They only work correctly under certain circumstances, and they have limitations and non-perfect evaluation metrics. Regular people (non-engineers) treat them as finished products or magic wands. They ignore the warnings in the page saying LLM can make mistakes. And there are billions of those people. This may create huge social problems that engineers can't fix.

georgeplusplus 1y ago
Normal product release cycles bring testable quality measures before the product is released. Do LLMs go through such tests? If there are serious societal issues that it can cause at the moment I wonder why it was released before being perfected, but then, what does perfected even look like? The product is darn good at the moment.
- ozgung 1y ago
  These products are basically public beta. Some features are even experimental. They are released to the public because (1) companies have to gain early market share (2) they need actual user data. Sam Altman firing drama from last year was related to this issue.
watwut 1y ago
> We engineers understand that LLMs are products under development. They only work correctly under certain circumstances Looking around me, engineers do not understand that. Instead, they have exactly same overblown expectations and actively push for LLM everywhere. They will call you ludite if you say anything else.
- ACCount36 1y ago
  [flagged]
- ozgung 1y ago
  That's also because of seeing them as technology under development. The overblown expectations are because of their potential in the future. The glass is half full today. It was almost empty just a few years ago. The water level is rising with an unprecedented rate. But we shouldn't forget it's still half empty right now. More importantly, we are bad at predicting how actual people use the technology.
- no_wizard 1y ago
  Wear that Luddite badge with honor. They were not anti technology[0], they fought for worker rights during an age of rapid rise of new technology. [0]: https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/rethinking-the-luddites-in-the-age-of-ai https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/rethinking-the-l...
  - ACCount36 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - deadbabe 1y ago
      Progress crushes you whether you are a Luddite or not.
    - GJim 1y ago
      > Luddites were idiots. They thought they could stand in the way of progress. Ummmm. No. The luddites were not opposed to progress or new machinery. The luddites called for unemployment compensation and retraining for workers *displaced* by the new machinery (machinery they sometimes helped build!). This probably makes them amongst the most progressive people of the 1800's.
    - sensanaty 1y ago
      Luddites weren't crushed by progress, they were crushed by an armed militia backed by the government. 12,000 militia and yeomanry units, in fact. Knowing how most of the AI fanatics are like though, doesn't surprise me they're on the side of the boot rather than on the side of the people getting crushed by said boot. Also, what's the definition and point of "progress" to you? Because the way AI is shaking out to me screams the opposite of what I'd expect progress to look like. Assuming the likes of Altman (an individual who wants to harvest your biometric data for a scam shitcoin, by the way) can be believed and we indeed reach the singularity or AGI or whatever, is everyone except for the C-level (who is somehow magically exempt from the negative effects of this progress and irreplaceable somehow) losing their livelihoods and getting crushed under the boot of the wealthy and powerful "progress", in your eyes?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- coffeefirst 1y ago
  "Ludite" "low-IQ" "meat LLM" "you will be left behind" The behavior of the boosters is basically the opposite of how to make friends and influence people. I've been through plenty of hype cycles, and this is the first one where they seem to need to insult and threaten everyone. I don't get it. And I don't feel any need to entertain it.
- obscurette 1y ago
  I have a bunch of coworkers who paste various LLM outputs to every chat while discussing issues in production. - "LLM X told that we should try to add this into configuration file – SOMETHING_SOMETHING = false." - "There is no SOMETHING_SOMETHING configuration option, you have a full source, grep for it." - "But should we try at least?"
coffeefirst 1y ago
Correct, and the root cause is it’s been sold to the public this way.
- lioeters 1y ago
  Marketing to the consumer instead of informing and educating the user. That makes sense in terms of incentives.
- pizza234 1y ago
  I think it's a grey area - on one hand, it's been sold as a source of truth, but on the other hand, there's a strong element of confirmation bias and/or simple laziness from users (of course, to varying degrees). A friend of mine states that the market rates for their position are wrong, because ChatGPT gave higher numbers: this is an example on the far end of the spectrum of confirmation bias - it matters little whether it was sold as source of truth or not.
4b11b4 1y ago
> "Social problems that engineers can't fix" Sounds similar to social media. Otherwise, yes, I am very concerned about society's use of LLMs -- particularly young people (students). But now the very teachers themselves... Frankly, not surprised. I've been using it to make me a much better tutor/mentor. But the cases outlined in (I'm assuming) the public education sector are very, very worrisome.
amrocha 1y ago
Engineers are not uniquely immune to this phenomenon. Just look at all the commenters in this board claiming AI makes them 20x more effective.
beefnugs 1y ago
I think its more capitalism problems. The constant squeeze for everyone to output more for less pay or die of starvation. No one could ever choose good in these circumstances. It is hilarious though that humans are just ready to slurp up any opportunity to just start shitting all over their work and their coworkers and students. Less time spent and caring?! yes please! then they become full time salesmen of it to everyone else, and then the social interaction problems just explode. Tribal standoffs, create entirely new tribes, plotting and deception to continue getting what they have a taste of. Infighting distractions are so convenient as the government guts everything they work under

by ozgung 1y ago

georgeplusplus 1y ago

Normal product release cycles bring testable quality measures before the product is released. Do LLMs go through such tests? If there are serious societal issues that it can cause at the moment I wonder why it was released before being perfected, but then, what does perfected even look like? The product is darn good at the moment.

ozgung 1y ago
These products are basically public beta. Some features are even experimental. They are released to the public because (1) companies have to gain early market share (2) they need actual user data. Sam Altman firing drama from last year was related to this issue.

watwut 1y ago

> We engineers understand that LLMs are products under development. They only work correctly under certain circumstances Looking around me, engineers do not understand that. Instead, they have exactly same overblown expectations and actively push for LLM everywhere. They will call you ludite if you say anything else.

ACCount36 1y ago
[flagged]
ozgung 1y ago
That's also because of seeing them as technology under development. The overblown expectations are because of their potential in the future. The glass is half full today. It was almost empty just a few years ago. The water level is rising with an unprecedented rate. But we shouldn't forget it's still half empty right now. More importantly, we are bad at predicting how actual people use the technology.
no_wizard 1y ago
Wear that Luddite badge with honor. They were not anti technology[0], they fought for worker rights during an age of rapid rise of new technology. [0]: https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/rethinking-the-luddites-in-the-age-of-ai https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/rethinking-the-l...
- ACCount36 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - deadbabe 1y ago
    Progress crushes you whether you are a Luddite or not.
  - GJim 1y ago
    > Luddites were idiots. They thought they could stand in the way of progress. Ummmm. No. The luddites were not opposed to progress or new machinery. The luddites called for unemployment compensation and retraining for workers *displaced* by the new machinery (machinery they sometimes helped build!). This probably makes them amongst the most progressive people of the 1800's.
  - sensanaty 1y ago
    Luddites weren't crushed by progress, they were crushed by an armed militia backed by the government. 12,000 militia and yeomanry units, in fact. Knowing how most of the AI fanatics are like though, doesn't surprise me they're on the side of the boot rather than on the side of the people getting crushed by said boot. Also, what's the definition and point of "progress" to you? Because the way AI is shaking out to me screams the opposite of what I'd expect progress to look like. Assuming the likes of Altman (an individual who wants to harvest your biometric data for a scam shitcoin, by the way) can be believed and we indeed reach the singularity or AGI or whatever, is everyone except for the C-level (who is somehow magically exempt from the negative effects of this progress and irreplaceable somehow) losing their livelihoods and getting crushed under the boot of the wealthy and powerful "progress", in your eyes?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
coffeefirst 1y ago
"Ludite" "low-IQ" "meat LLM" "you will be left behind" The behavior of the boosters is basically the opposite of how to make friends and influence people. I've been through plenty of hype cycles, and this is the first one where they seem to need to insult and threaten everyone. I don't get it. And I don't feel any need to entertain it.
obscurette 1y ago
I have a bunch of coworkers who paste various LLM outputs to every chat while discussing issues in production. - "LLM X told that we should try to add this into configuration file – SOMETHING_SOMETHING = false." - "There is no SOMETHING_SOMETHING configuration option, you have a full source, grep for it." - "But should we try at least?"

coffeefirst 1y ago

Correct, and the root cause is it’s been sold to the public this way.

lioeters 1y ago
Marketing to the consumer instead of informing and educating the user. That makes sense in terms of incentives.
pizza234 1y ago
I think it's a grey area - on one hand, it's been sold as a source of truth, but on the other hand, there's a strong element of confirmation bias and/or simple laziness from users (of course, to varying degrees). A friend of mine states that the market rates for their position are wrong, because ChatGPT gave higher numbers: this is an example on the far end of the spectrum of confirmation bias - it matters little whether it was sold as source of truth or not.

4b11b4 1y ago

> "Social problems that engineers can't fix" Sounds similar to social media. Otherwise, yes, I am very concerned about society's use of LLMs -- particularly young people (students). But now the very teachers themselves... Frankly, not surprised. I've been using it to make me a much better tutor/mentor. But the cases outlined in (I'm assuming) the public education sector are very, very worrisome.

amrocha 1y ago

Engineers are not uniquely immune to this phenomenon. Just look at all the commenters in this board claiming AI makes them 20x more effective.

beefnugs 1y ago

I think its more capitalism problems. The constant squeeze for everyone to output more for less pay or die of starvation. No one could ever choose good in these circumstances. It is hilarious though that humans are just ready to slurp up any opportunity to just start shitting all over their work and their coworkers and students. Less time spent and caring?! yes please! then they become full time salesmen of it to everyone else, and then the social interaction problems just explode. Tribal standoffs, create entirely new tribes, plotting and deception to continue getting what they have a taste of. Infighting distractions are so convenient as the government guts everything they work under