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It's an important discussion. We should all be aiming to do better. Instead we're just lowering the standards for everything. Only the morbidly obese should be

by sjw987 1y ago

It's an important discussion. We should all be aiming to do better. Instead we're just lowering the standards for everything. Only the morbidly obese should be using these drugs to get down to a healthy enough (overweight) level to lose the rest with sensible discipline, healthy/less eating (mostly this), and exercise (less this, but important for the mind, strength and cardio). Discipline and basic understanding of nutrition and fitness are important life skills. At some point everybody should be developing them. If people can't be arsed doing that and we give easy shortcuts for everything in life, what's the point in being alive? This argument comes up time and time again because it's common sense, yet people always seem to want to ignore it because deep down they are being lazy and undisciplined.

guerrilla 1y ago
Nah man. I'm overweight and despite trying everything I possibly can for most of my adult life, I still can't win. I do everything you're supposed to do but it's just not possible to maintain long-term. It's a constant struggle. You don't have discipline. It's just easier for you. That's all. I still won't use this drug but don't try to tell me I failed because of a lack of effort, understanding, exercise, "discipline", etc.
- lo_zamoyski 1y ago
  What is the source of difficulty in your case? Are you comparing your situation to that of someone with a predisposition for alcoholism?
  - guerrilla 1y ago
    No, it's far more difficult than quitting addictive drugs. I've done that and succeded several times over.
    - lo_zamoyski 1y ago
      So you accept it as a behavioral problem, yes? I.e., an inability to refrain from overeating? Any speculation about why you cannot deny yourself?
      - guerrilla 1y ago
        No, it's not a "behavioral problem." Your phrasing is disgusting. The research is perfectly clear on why it's extrenely difficult to lose weight. There's no need for speculation.
        lo_zamoyski 1y ago
        So, you reject thermodynamics? Phrases like "the research" is a convenient way to insinuate and bluff. Obesity is absolutely a behavioral problem.
        guerrilla 1y ago
        > So, you reject thermodynamics? No. > Obesity is absolutely a behavioral problem. Nope.
      - cthalupa 1y ago
        For more than half of my life, I was quite skinny. I was not exhibiting any particularly strong willpower or self control. I never had to put forth any effort in not being fat. It was not a struggle, it was not a challenge, and it was not because I lacked a behavioral problem. Well into my 20s I had zero issue controlling my weight - though saying controlling my weight here is kind of a misnomer, since I put no thought or effort into it. If anything, when I was trying to get into powerlifting, I struggled to eat enough - I constantly felt sick trying to reach my calorie and protein targets. Then circumstances changed. I swapped to an overnight job for more money. I started cooking less because of the hours, and eating more fast food. I stopped lifting weights because powerlifting was less interesting to me. My weight crept up little by little for years and years until I was overweight. And I realized my relationship with food had changed - ignoring physical hunger was still easy, but I was still constantly thinking about food. Slightly bored? Let's eat something. Work stressing me out? Grab some more food. Have a few minutes respite from everything? Eating sounds good. Eventually I was past overweight and into obese. I managed to lose 30lb or so a few times, close to 50lb once. I could maintain it for a bit. But I was having to expend huge amounts of mental energy to do it - something I had never had to do before I had gotten fat in the first place. The second I had to prioritize other things in my life, for whatever reason, I no longer had the energy to spend so much time trying to push down all of the noise in my mind about food. vs. just a decade prior, never really thinking about food at all. Is it possible for anyone to lose weight? Sure. Bodies aren't magic. Energy has to come from somewhere, and lower your calories a sufficient amount and you will lose weight. But for many people the amount of willpower and effort required is just massively different. The years of skinny me would not have lasted nearly as long as they did if I had the same level of food noise then that I do now.
- sjw987 1y ago
  You just haven't got there yet. You haven't failed. It really just comes down to eating less and healthier. Some people have metabolic differences either side, but they don't amount to a great deal. Weight loss drugs suppressing your appetite literally shows this to be true. You just need to do it yourself without the drug. Eventually you'd want to come off the drug, right? When that happens, you would need to do just this. Every time I've heard somebody say they've tried everything, they usually haven't. It's not a failing, it's an opportunity to keep trying and get it right.
  - guerrilla 1y ago
    > Every time I've heard somebody say they've tried everything, they usually haven't. You're significantly underestimating how difficult doing the right things consitently is.
  - kalleboo 1y ago
    Lots of people have literally died before they "got there". They would still have been alive if they had access to the right medication.
  - cthalupa 1y ago
    > Eventually you'd want to come off the drug, right? When that happens, you would need to do just this. I've made enough changes to my lifestyle that I am confident I could come off the drug and maintain the lost weight. I've added weight lifting with the prospect of bodybuilding as a hobby. I'm likely going to need to take time off just to get enough calories in during periods when I am trying to add muscle because I won't want to eat enough otherwise. But I'm not actually looking forward to that, because the list of positive effects from these medications that are independent of weight loss is quite long. I expect that short of any major detrimental side effect suddenly rearing it's head or gene editing or some other superior thing appearing, I'll be on these for life, regardless of weight.
- xienze 1y ago
  > don't try to tell me I failed because of a lack of effort, understanding, exercise, "discipline", etc. Not to be _too_ rude here, but clearly you missed the mark on at least one of those things. If you're burning more energy than you're consuming, it's impossible to not lose weight. Maybe you underestimated how many calories you were consuming, overestimated how many calories you were burning, didn't do it often enough, didn't do it for a long enough period of time, had a few too many "cheat days", or some combination thereof.
  - guerrilla 1y ago
    I count my calories accurately. The problem is keeping consumption that low in the long term. It's not sustainable. Your body does everything to fight you and it only gets harder the further you go.
    - xienze 1y ago
      Well that's where the "discipline" part comes in.
      - guerrilla 1y ago
        Only if you misunderstood what I said. Your body will determine how much "discipline" you have. Will power doesn't come from some external magical place. It'll be adjusted by your body as necessary to make sure losing weight is hard as possible for you.
  - jonathan_h 1y ago
    The missing piece is that the body does not burn a constant amount of energy, and often the body's response to calorie restriction is to reduce the amount of energy used. [1] Play the weight-loss game with your body, and you'll find the goalposts get moved. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9036397/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9036397/
    - xienze 1y ago
ben_w 1y ago
> If people can't be arsed doing that and we give easy shortcuts for everything in life, what's the point in being alive? Embrace the shortcuts. Life's too short not to. What's that Plato quote about writing? If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls. They will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only the semblance of wisdom, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much while for the most part they know nothing. And yet, here were are, conversing at all only because of writing.
- sjw987 1y ago
  There's a time and place for shortcuts. Health and fitness shortcuts hold more to lose than they do to gain. Sometimes the long way is better long term. A healthy attitude towards eating and fitness can, and usually does, elevate your life experience many times over. Taking a shortcut in these erases any personal development and learning experience you could get from finding a sport you love, changing your views on food. A diatribe about Plato doesn't make the universal argument for taking shortcuts. Do you want the people building your home and infrastructure making shortcuts? Do you want doctors in training to shortcut their studies? Why work out and train longer when you can just take anabolic steroids? Why read (or watch films) if you can just skim the summaries on Wikipedia?
  - ben_w 1y ago
    > Health and fitness shortcuts hold more to lose than they do to gain. The entire history of medicine and sports science disagrees with you about that. It's all about knowing what the direct path to the goal is and not meandering around the metaphorical scenic route to those goals. > Taking a shortcut in these erases any personal development and learning experience you could get from finding a sport you love Or enable sports that were otherwise unobtainable. > changing your views on food. More likely that these drugs would do that. UK celebrity chef Jamie Oliver tried to promote healthy eating in schools by showing school kids how chicken nuggets were made. The kids were disgusted… and yet still wanted to eat them, much to Jamie Oliver's surprise. > Do you want the people building your home and infrastructure making shortcuts? Given "shortcuts" in this case means "technology", here's what building a home without "shortcuts" looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eesj3pJF3lA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eesj3pJF3lA > Do you want doctors in training to shortcut their studies? And in this case, "shortcuts" means "reads Gray's Anatomy rather than figuring out anatomy solely from first principles by dissection of corpses".

by sjw987 1y ago

guerrilla 1y ago

Nah man. I'm overweight and despite trying everything I possibly can for most of my adult life, I still can't win. I do everything you're supposed to do but it's just not possible to maintain long-term. It's a constant struggle. You don't have discipline. It's just easier for you. That's all. I still won't use this drug but don't try to tell me I failed because of a lack of effort, understanding, exercise, "discipline", etc.

lo_zamoyski 1y ago
What is the source of difficulty in your case? Are you comparing your situation to that of someone with a predisposition for alcoholism?
- guerrilla 1y ago
  No, it's far more difficult than quitting addictive drugs. I've done that and succeded several times over.
  - lo_zamoyski 1y ago
    So you accept it as a behavioral problem, yes? I.e., an inability to refrain from overeating? Any speculation about why you cannot deny yourself?
    - guerrilla 1y ago
      No, it's not a "behavioral problem." Your phrasing is disgusting. The research is perfectly clear on why it's extrenely difficult to lose weight. There's no need for speculation.
      - lo_zamoyski 1y ago
        So, you reject thermodynamics? Phrases like "the research" is a convenient way to insinuate and bluff. Obesity is absolutely a behavioral problem.
        guerrilla 1y ago
        > So, you reject thermodynamics? No. > Obesity is absolutely a behavioral problem. Nope.
    - cthalupa 1y ago
      For more than half of my life, I was quite skinny. I was not exhibiting any particularly strong willpower or self control. I never had to put forth any effort in not being fat. It was not a struggle, it was not a challenge, and it was not because I lacked a behavioral problem. Well into my 20s I had zero issue controlling my weight - though saying controlling my weight here is kind of a misnomer, since I put no thought or effort into it. If anything, when I was trying to get into powerlifting, I struggled to eat enough - I constantly felt sick trying to reach my calorie and protein targets. Then circumstances changed. I swapped to an overnight job for more money. I started cooking less because of the hours, and eating more fast food. I stopped lifting weights because powerlifting was less interesting to me. My weight crept up little by little for years and years until I was overweight. And I realized my relationship with food had changed - ignoring physical hunger was still easy, but I was still constantly thinking about food. Slightly bored? Let's eat something. Work stressing me out? Grab some more food. Have a few minutes respite from everything? Eating sounds good. Eventually I was past overweight and into obese. I managed to lose 30lb or so a few times, close to 50lb once. I could maintain it for a bit. But I was having to expend huge amounts of mental energy to do it - something I had never had to do before I had gotten fat in the first place. The second I had to prioritize other things in my life, for whatever reason, I no longer had the energy to spend so much time trying to push down all of the noise in my mind about food. vs. just a decade prior, never really thinking about food at all. Is it possible for anyone to lose weight? Sure. Bodies aren't magic. Energy has to come from somewhere, and lower your calories a sufficient amount and you will lose weight. But for many people the amount of willpower and effort required is just massively different. The years of skinny me would not have lasted nearly as long as they did if I had the same level of food noise then that I do now.
sjw987 1y ago
You just haven't got there yet. You haven't failed. It really just comes down to eating less and healthier. Some people have metabolic differences either side, but they don't amount to a great deal. Weight loss drugs suppressing your appetite literally shows this to be true. You just need to do it yourself without the drug. Eventually you'd want to come off the drug, right? When that happens, you would need to do just this. Every time I've heard somebody say they've tried everything, they usually haven't. It's not a failing, it's an opportunity to keep trying and get it right.
- guerrilla 1y ago
  > Every time I've heard somebody say they've tried everything, they usually haven't. You're significantly underestimating how difficult doing the right things consitently is.
- kalleboo 1y ago
  Lots of people have literally died before they "got there". They would still have been alive if they had access to the right medication.
- cthalupa 1y ago
  > Eventually you'd want to come off the drug, right? When that happens, you would need to do just this. I've made enough changes to my lifestyle that I am confident I could come off the drug and maintain the lost weight. I've added weight lifting with the prospect of bodybuilding as a hobby. I'm likely going to need to take time off just to get enough calories in during periods when I am trying to add muscle because I won't want to eat enough otherwise. But I'm not actually looking forward to that, because the list of positive effects from these medications that are independent of weight loss is quite long. I expect that short of any major detrimental side effect suddenly rearing it's head or gene editing or some other superior thing appearing, I'll be on these for life, regardless of weight.
xienze 1y ago
> don't try to tell me I failed because of a lack of effort, understanding, exercise, "discipline", etc. Not to be _too_ rude here, but clearly you missed the mark on at least one of those things. If you're burning more energy than you're consuming, it's impossible to not lose weight. Maybe you underestimated how many calories you were consuming, overestimated how many calories you were burning, didn't do it often enough, didn't do it for a long enough period of time, had a few too many "cheat days", or some combination thereof.
- guerrilla 1y ago
  I count my calories accurately. The problem is keeping consumption that low in the long term. It's not sustainable. Your body does everything to fight you and it only gets harder the further you go.
  - xienze 1y ago
    Well that's where the "discipline" part comes in.
    - guerrilla 1y ago
      Only if you misunderstood what I said. Your body will determine how much "discipline" you have. Will power doesn't come from some external magical place. It'll be adjusted by your body as necessary to make sure losing weight is hard as possible for you.
- jonathan_h 1y ago
  The missing piece is that the body does not burn a constant amount of energy, and often the body's response to calorie restriction is to reduce the amount of energy used. [1] Play the weight-loss game with your body, and you'll find the goalposts get moved. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9036397/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9036397/
  - xienze 1y ago

ben_w 1y ago

> If people can't be arsed doing that and we give easy shortcuts for everything in life, what's the point in being alive? Embrace the shortcuts. Life's too short not to. What's that Plato quote about writing? If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls. They will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only the semblance of wisdom, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much while for the most part they know nothing. And yet, here were are, conversing at all only because of writing.

sjw987 1y ago
There's a time and place for shortcuts. Health and fitness shortcuts hold more to lose than they do to gain. Sometimes the long way is better long term. A healthy attitude towards eating and fitness can, and usually does, elevate your life experience many times over. Taking a shortcut in these erases any personal development and learning experience you could get from finding a sport you love, changing your views on food. A diatribe about Plato doesn't make the universal argument for taking shortcuts. Do you want the people building your home and infrastructure making shortcuts? Do you want doctors in training to shortcut their studies? Why work out and train longer when you can just take anabolic steroids? Why read (or watch films) if you can just skim the summaries on Wikipedia?
- ben_w 1y ago
  > Health and fitness shortcuts hold more to lose than they do to gain. The entire history of medicine and sports science disagrees with you about that. It's all about knowing what the direct path to the goal is and not meandering around the metaphorical scenic route to those goals. > Taking a shortcut in these erases any personal development and learning experience you could get from finding a sport you love Or enable sports that were otherwise unobtainable. > changing your views on food. More likely that these drugs would do that. UK celebrity chef Jamie Oliver tried to promote healthy eating in schools by showing school kids how chicken nuggets were made. The kids were disgusted… and yet still wanted to eat them, much to Jamie Oliver's surprise. > Do you want the people building your home and infrastructure making shortcuts? Given "shortcuts" in this case means "technology", here's what building a home without "shortcuts" looks like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eesj3pJF3lA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eesj3pJF3lA > Do you want doctors in training to shortcut their studies? And in this case, "shortcuts" means "reads Gray's Anatomy rather than figuring out anatomy solely from first principles by dissection of corpses".