5 ms·

Drones are most effective as tools of psychological warfare I think. Infantry in a trench can maybe disable a wave or two of drones before becoming overwhelmed,

by ipnon 1y ago

Drones are most effective as tools of psychological warfare I think. Infantry in a trench can maybe disable a wave or two of drones before becoming overwhelmed, but the drone operator can remain safe and calm in their bunker kilometers away. Most drones don’t make it on target or even inflict lethal injury but their presence or the threat of their presence constantly draws the enemy’s attention away from your units. In Ukraine soldiers seem to worry much more about drones more than small arms or indirect fire. And both sides use this to influence the tactical decision making of their enemies.

wombatpm 1y ago
I would think drones carrying cluster bombs would be effective. More targeted in their destruction. No need to scatter bomblets over a quarter of a mile, just 10 or so around a tank.
- verdverm 1y ago
  If you have seen videos from the Russian invasion of Ukraine, especially over time, you can see the evolution of tactics. For example with tanks, they... - strap artillery shell to the drone and fly it into the tank - drop a standard grenade into the hatch after the crew has fled They don't need to drop munitions like cluster, they strap several on and drop them one at a time. They have become quite skilled and accurate, even from 100+ meters up in wind There are places in Ukraine where it looks like giant spiders live there, due to all the fiber optic cables from drones left on the battle fields
  - vincnetas 1y ago
    as far as i know, they don't strap artillery shells to drones, they too heavy. they strap shaped charges.
    - verdverm 1y ago
      100s of videos of drones with arty shells can be seen on https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/ They have strapped so many things to drones, you'd think they've tried about everything, then some new video comes out Drones have evolved rapidly and come in all shapes and sizes now. The DJI Maverick image in people's head is only one modality, though by far the most common form factor
      - SJC_Hacker 1y ago
        Those must be HEAT rounds. An AP round would not have the velocity to do anything, anti-personnel would not penetrate tanks armor but would kill crew if dismounted or a hatch is left open
        esseph 1y ago
        Old rpg rounds are cheap and top-down doesn't require much pen, making older stock more effective. Newish stock are tandem and would be even worse to try and counter from above (PG-7VR).
      - Zanfa 1y ago
        The typical setup I’ve seen for FPV drones is RPG warheads or small mortar shells for drops. I’d love to see one drop 152/155mm shells though.
      - Cthulhu_ 1y ago
        Those aren't artillery shells though, the explosive part of those weighs seven kilos, which is too much for the mass produced drones they use. As others mentioned, they use RPGs (3 kgs), mortar shells (~1.5 kgs), grenades (<1 kg), sometimes land mines, and specialized drone explosives for suicide drones. I do like seeing the production facilities of these drones, how they simplified the designs but also made design decisions to deal with the scale, they're built so they can be stacked easily. Mind you, this is probably the case with these drone show drones too.
        distances 1y ago
    - asimpleusecase 1y ago
      In some photos I have seen the charge looks like and RPG https://share.google/LUIxGYEC07ZDVMVgT https://share.google/LUIxGYEC07ZDVMVgT
  - SteveNuts 1y ago
    > all the fiber optic cables from drones left on the battle fields Are they tethered? I thought these were all radio controlled
    - Crespyl 1y ago
      They switched to fiber optic tethers to avoid being jammed.
    - verdverm 1y ago
      Tethered to avoid jamming Here's an post with a few pictures of the tangled mess left behind https://bou.org.uk/blog-moreland-fibreoptic-drones/ https://bou.org.uk/blog-moreland-fibreoptic-drones/
      - ducksinhats 1y ago
        Seen this a few times and am surprised it's actually a viable solution. Used to be heavily into fpv a long time ago and remember MIT(?) had autonomous CV software that could easily navigate through thick forests that was open sourced, I think the only real use of onboard GPS there was "go from point A to B" This was perhaps a decade ago mind you, people rocking DIY setups had fairly limited computing compared to what you can buy today. The PID needed for quads/hex/octos to stay aloft has trivial compute requirements.
      - dheerajvs 1y ago
        Won't the fibres leading up to the operator and revealing their location not a threat?
        red-iron-pine 1y ago
        you need to walk through the battlefield to trace it. you know, the one the drone just flew over. they're pretty thin, and it's not hard for the operators to displace. even using other drones and AI to track refraction index of the fiber it's still a tall order. you'd probably have better luck shooting artillery at any large building or hedgerow nearby...
  - disillusioned 1y ago
    The fact that we have not yet seen a high-profile political assassination by drone, particularly from the "death from above" method, absolutely _boggles_ my mind, and I don't think we get out of this decade without that occurring, and I'm not particularly sure what sort of counter-measure you could reasonably put in place to stop that. The 2030s are going to be messy.
    - esseph 1y ago
      Less than 5 years is my guess, somewhere in the world.
    - Cthulhu_ 1y ago
      It's a matter of time; that said, all high profile open air whatsits have anti-drone detection and countermeasures in place. The Ukranian invasion is one of attrition, where both sides try to limit expenses; this isn't the case for e.g. the US president's protection, where they can afford to deploy millions in countermeasures.
- freefrog334433 1y ago
  Problem is that munitions carried by drones are much weaker than artillery shells - more like grenades. On this page is a turtle tank that took 60 drone attacks to disable. https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/western-analysts-find-little-hope https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/western-analysts-find-li... Russians are able to retrieve 80% of disabled armored vehicles to repair them. A tank does not even notice cluster bombs - this type of bomb is effective against infantry and civilians.
- red-iron-pine 1y ago
  10 or so wouldn't work on a tank. you need a shaped charge or EFP. that might be a solution for massed infantry, but then again you can just drop a single mortar round, e.g. the Ukrainian "foot crusher"
Animats 1y ago
The Ukrainians report that about 70% of their kills are now by drones. Current Ukrainian drone production rate was 1.7 million last year. Target for this year is above 4 million.[1] Russian comment: “Their reconnaissance drones are in the sky 24/7, and any movement on our part is immediately met with a massive wave of [first-person-view] drones.” Tactics when you have large numbers of expendable drones are totally different from the old days of snooping around with a few drones. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2025/03/12/45-million-drones-is-a-lot-of-drones-its-ukraines-new-production-target-for-2025/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2025/03/12/45-million-...
- Balgair 1y ago
  There is this interesting arms race here with drones and unit size, yes? If you can get any large group together, then a drone will come for it. So, there is a balance between the size of a group and the cost of the drone that the enemy is will to spend (+ estimated failure rate). As drones get cheaper and more efficient at killing that number of soldiers worth killing approaches 1. Meaning that group and unit cohesion at the 'front' goes to 0. The 'long term' dynamics are stunning. I cannot imagine the psychological horror of being sent with little training (because why bother for either side) into the theater all alone without any officer supervision or buddies. You'd have a radio that gets jammed, maybe, some bivouac supplies, bad food and water, a gun of some sort hopefully, and time, terrible time. The veterans, what little there are, would tell you that if you hear a drone, you're dead already. You'd have nothing but superstition to go on. You'd just sit there in the heat or cold, waiting on a radio signal, knowing that your side will shoot you too if you 'missed' the call to attack. And you'd wait and wait. If your buddy came over, or a lieutenant, to check in on you then you're at higher risk of being droned. You'd have only your frightened thoughts to keep company and solace with. Morale? what morale? That is carnal house. There is no 'army' in the field, you command nothing but the slaughter of young boys to an indifferent AI god. To some degree, having AI drones fighting off against AI drones can't come fast enough.
  - Animats 1y ago
    Drones are ammo now, not assets. The old USMC manual stresses retrieving the expensive US drone, cleaning it, and putting it back in its protective case. Ukraine expects to produce 4 million drones this year, and most of them will be expended. Everybody in that war is getting good at building trenches with top cover for drone protection.[1] Camo netting up top can help. But the dug-in troops can't accomplish much beyond survival. This war is static but deadly. [1] https://taskandpurpose.com/news/navy-marines-trenches-drones/ https://taskandpurpose.com/news/navy-marines-trenches-drones...
beambot 1y ago
There are entire subreddits dedicated to actual footage of drone effectiveness on the front lines... It's definitely not just psychological warfare. In some cases, the fiber optic lines crisscross fields so densely it looks like spider webs. NSFW - https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/
- distances 1y ago
  Or subreddit DroneCombat for drone specific posts, very NSFW too. And then UkraineWarVideoReport has a bit wider range or reports and links, so unlike those other two it's not combat footage only.
- holoduke 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - Cthulhu_ 1y ago
    Is there a pro-Russian one? Any reporting or combat footage, at least what's been posted on Reddit, has been pro-Ukranian, and the Ukranian losses are underreported. It's not warmongering though; Ukraine never asked for it, it's a war of aggression from the Russian side. I also don't think the soldiers depicted asked for any of that, but I doubt they were offered much of a choice in the matter.
    - freefrog334433 1y ago
      https://simplicius76.substack.com/ https://simplicius76.substack.com/ is in the top 10 subscribed substacks. He posts videos supporting points he makes, and you can find drones attacks. His analysis and predictions are more accurate than pro-Ukrainian pundits, and draws on information from within Ukraine (speeches at the Rada, Ukrainian commander interviews, posts) and Russia.
  - wiseowise 1y ago
    > pro Ukrainian warmongering people As opposed to pro Russian peaceful people? What the fuck do I even read?
stoneman24 1y ago
Some more information about the psychological impact of drone warfare [0] Massive stress factor when you are in the field leading to hyper vigilance when on leave (or at home) with lots of trigger events. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c23gjk7dlvlo.amp https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c23gjk7dlvlo.amp
red-iron-pine 1y ago
drones ain't psyops, mate. they're killing a ton of people in combat situations, and can do things like fly into a bunker or tunnel and get the inhabitants

by ipnon 1y ago

wombatpm 1y ago

I would think drones carrying cluster bombs would be effective. More targeted in their destruction. No need to scatter bomblets over a quarter of a mile, just 10 or so around a tank.

verdverm 1y ago
If you have seen videos from the Russian invasion of Ukraine, especially over time, you can see the evolution of tactics. For example with tanks, they... - strap artillery shell to the drone and fly it into the tank - drop a standard grenade into the hatch after the crew has fled They don't need to drop munitions like cluster, they strap several on and drop them one at a time. They have become quite skilled and accurate, even from 100+ meters up in wind There are places in Ukraine where it looks like giant spiders live there, due to all the fiber optic cables from drones left on the battle fields
- vincnetas 1y ago
  as far as i know, they don't strap artillery shells to drones, they too heavy. they strap shaped charges.
  - verdverm 1y ago
    100s of videos of drones with arty shells can be seen on https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/ https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineWarVideoReport/ They have strapped so many things to drones, you'd think they've tried about everything, then some new video comes out Drones have evolved rapidly and come in all shapes and sizes now. The DJI Maverick image in people's head is only one modality, though by far the most common form factor
    - SJC_Hacker 1y ago
      Those must be HEAT rounds. An AP round would not have the velocity to do anything, anti-personnel would not penetrate tanks armor but would kill crew if dismounted or a hatch is left open
      - esseph 1y ago
        Old rpg rounds are cheap and top-down doesn't require much pen, making older stock more effective. Newish stock are tandem and would be even worse to try and counter from above (PG-7VR).
    - Zanfa 1y ago
      The typical setup I’ve seen for FPV drones is RPG warheads or small mortar shells for drops. I’d love to see one drop 152/155mm shells though.
    - Cthulhu_ 1y ago
      Those aren't artillery shells though, the explosive part of those weighs seven kilos, which is too much for the mass produced drones they use. As others mentioned, they use RPGs (3 kgs), mortar shells (~1.5 kgs), grenades (<1 kg), sometimes land mines, and specialized drone explosives for suicide drones. I do like seeing the production facilities of these drones, how they simplified the designs but also made design decisions to deal with the scale, they're built so they can be stacked easily. Mind you, this is probably the case with these drone show drones too.
      - distances 1y ago
  - asimpleusecase 1y ago
    In some photos I have seen the charge looks like and RPG https://share.google/LUIxGYEC07ZDVMVgT https://share.google/LUIxGYEC07ZDVMVgT
- SteveNuts 1y ago
  > all the fiber optic cables from drones left on the battle fields Are they tethered? I thought these were all radio controlled
  - Crespyl 1y ago
    They switched to fiber optic tethers to avoid being jammed.
  - verdverm 1y ago
    Tethered to avoid jamming Here's an post with a few pictures of the tangled mess left behind https://bou.org.uk/blog-moreland-fibreoptic-drones/ https://bou.org.uk/blog-moreland-fibreoptic-drones/
    - ducksinhats 1y ago
      Seen this a few times and am surprised it's actually a viable solution. Used to be heavily into fpv a long time ago and remember MIT(?) had autonomous CV software that could easily navigate through thick forests that was open sourced, I think the only real use of onboard GPS there was "go from point A to B" This was perhaps a decade ago mind you, people rocking DIY setups had fairly limited computing compared to what you can buy today. The PID needed for quads/hex/octos to stay aloft has trivial compute requirements.
    - dheerajvs 1y ago
      Won't the fibres leading up to the operator and revealing their location not a threat?
      - red-iron-pine 1y ago
        you need to walk through the battlefield to trace it. you know, the one the drone just flew over. they're pretty thin, and it's not hard for the operators to displace. even using other drones and AI to track refraction index of the fiber it's still a tall order. you'd probably have better luck shooting artillery at any large building or hedgerow nearby...
- disillusioned 1y ago
  The fact that we have not yet seen a high-profile political assassination by drone, particularly from the "death from above" method, absolutely _boggles_ my mind, and I don't think we get out of this decade without that occurring, and I'm not particularly sure what sort of counter-measure you could reasonably put in place to stop that. The 2030s are going to be messy.
  - esseph 1y ago
    Less than 5 years is my guess, somewhere in the world.
  - Cthulhu_ 1y ago
    It's a matter of time; that said, all high profile open air whatsits have anti-drone detection and countermeasures in place. The Ukranian invasion is one of attrition, where both sides try to limit expenses; this isn't the case for e.g. the US president's protection, where they can afford to deploy millions in countermeasures.
freefrog334433 1y ago
Problem is that munitions carried by drones are much weaker than artillery shells - more like grenades. On this page is a turtle tank that took 60 drone attacks to disable. https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/western-analysts-find-little-hope https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/western-analysts-find-li... Russians are able to retrieve 80% of disabled armored vehicles to repair them. A tank does not even notice cluster bombs - this type of bomb is effective against infantry and civilians.
red-iron-pine 1y ago
10 or so wouldn't work on a tank. you need a shaped charge or EFP. that might be a solution for massed infantry, but then again you can just drop a single mortar round, e.g. the Ukrainian "foot crusher"

Animats 1y ago

The Ukrainians report that about 70% of their kills are now by drones. Current Ukrainian drone production rate was 1.7 million last year. Target for this year is above 4 million.[1] Russian comment: “Their reconnaissance drones are in the sky 24/7, and any movement on our part is immediately met with a massive wave of [first-person-view] drones.” Tactics when you have large numbers of expendable drones are totally different from the old days of snooping around with a few drones. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2025/03/12/45-million-drones-is-a-lot-of-drones-its-ukraines-new-production-target-for-2025/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2025/03/12/45-million-...

Balgair 1y ago
There is this interesting arms race here with drones and unit size, yes? If you can get any large group together, then a drone will come for it. So, there is a balance between the size of a group and the cost of the drone that the enemy is will to spend (+ estimated failure rate). As drones get cheaper and more efficient at killing that number of soldiers worth killing approaches 1. Meaning that group and unit cohesion at the 'front' goes to 0. The 'long term' dynamics are stunning. I cannot imagine the psychological horror of being sent with little training (because why bother for either side) into the theater all alone without any officer supervision or buddies. You'd have a radio that gets jammed, maybe, some bivouac supplies, bad food and water, a gun of some sort hopefully, and time, terrible time. The veterans, what little there are, would tell you that if you hear a drone, you're dead already. You'd have nothing but superstition to go on. You'd just sit there in the heat or cold, waiting on a radio signal, knowing that your side will shoot you too if you 'missed' the call to attack. And you'd wait and wait. If your buddy came over, or a lieutenant, to check in on you then you're at higher risk of being droned. You'd have only your frightened thoughts to keep company and solace with. Morale? what morale? That is carnal house. There is no 'army' in the field, you command nothing but the slaughter of young boys to an indifferent AI god. To some degree, having AI drones fighting off against AI drones can't come fast enough.
- Animats 1y ago
  Drones are ammo now, not assets. The old USMC manual stresses retrieving the expensive US drone, cleaning it, and putting it back in its protective case. Ukraine expects to produce 4 million drones this year, and most of them will be expended. Everybody in that war is getting good at building trenches with top cover for drone protection.[1] Camo netting up top can help. But the dug-in troops can't accomplish much beyond survival. This war is static but deadly. [1] https://taskandpurpose.com/news/navy-marines-trenches-drones/ https://taskandpurpose.com/news/navy-marines-trenches-drones...

beambot 1y ago

There are entire subreddits dedicated to actual footage of drone effectiveness on the front lines... It's definitely not just psychological warfare. In some cases, the fiber optic lines crisscross fields so densely it looks like spider webs. NSFW - https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/

distances 1y ago
Or subreddit DroneCombat for drone specific posts, very NSFW too. And then UkraineWarVideoReport has a bit wider range or reports and links, so unlike those other two it's not combat footage only.
holoduke 1y ago
[flagged]
- Cthulhu_ 1y ago
  Is there a pro-Russian one? Any reporting or combat footage, at least what's been posted on Reddit, has been pro-Ukranian, and the Ukranian losses are underreported. It's not warmongering though; Ukraine never asked for it, it's a war of aggression from the Russian side. I also don't think the soldiers depicted asked for any of that, but I doubt they were offered much of a choice in the matter.
  - freefrog334433 1y ago
    https://simplicius76.substack.com/ https://simplicius76.substack.com/ is in the top 10 subscribed substacks. He posts videos supporting points he makes, and you can find drones attacks. His analysis and predictions are more accurate than pro-Ukrainian pundits, and draws on information from within Ukraine (speeches at the Rada, Ukrainian commander interviews, posts) and Russia.
- wiseowise 1y ago
  > pro Ukrainian warmongering people As opposed to pro Russian peaceful people? What the fuck do I even read?

stoneman24 1y ago

Some more information about the psychological impact of drone warfare [0] Massive stress factor when you are in the field leading to hyper vigilance when on leave (or at home) with lots of trigger events. [0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c23gjk7dlvlo.amp https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c23gjk7dlvlo.amp

red-iron-pine 1y ago

drones ain't psyops, mate. they're killing a ton of people in combat situations, and can do things like fly into a bunker or tunnel and get the inhabitants