4 ms·

Drivers who appeal school speed zone camera fines almost guaranteed to lose

22 points by josephcsible 1y ago

josephcsible 1y ago
[flagged]
- bravesoul2 1y ago
  Australia makes it clear, signs have the times on. Yes you need a watch to check but if in doubt just go slow.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - bruceallmighty 1y ago
    Kind of. They have times + "SCHOOL DAYS" - When are school days you may ask? Well, it's any day the school is in session (excluding holidays) and not every adult will know when school is in session or not. Many will also have flashing lights on them. However, the flashing lights do not override the time nor "SCHOOL DAYS". If the lights are flashing out-of-hours you can disregard the sign, but if the lights are NOT flashing and it IS the time+day then you need to respect the sign. ie. The flashing lights are irrelevant, and are only to catch attention.
  - magicalhippo 1y ago
    Norway makes it easy. There's no time modification on the speed signs. It's slow all day err day near schools.
    - t-writescode 1y ago
      In a world where it is reasonable to have the road always be a slower speed for pedestrian, especially school, traffic this is by far the best option, imo.
- throwaway173738 1y ago
  Yeah my policy now is to go 20 if I see a sign regardless of whether it’s flashing. In my home state the places that use these demand that you incriminate someone else as a condition of eliminating the fine which looks illegal on its face because the state law governing their use only requires a statement that you weren’t driving.
WarOnPrivacy 1y ago
After 3 decades living in WestCentral FL counties, I learned something about local police departments. You can measure the ethics of the police chief (and to a lesser degree, county commissioners), by whether they embrace or refuse revenue-generating traffic cameras. a school speed zone camera caught him going 38 mph when he thought the speed limit was 40mph because the school speed zone sign wasn’t flashing when he was driving past an elementary school near his home. In fact, despite the sign stating, "20 mph when flashing," the sign isn’t even equipped with a flashing beacon. As a result, Weaver believes the cameras have become an easy money grab for counties and cities using a vaguely written law to cash in on drivers. Bad sheriffs and bad officials adore cash-spewing traffic cams. Hillsborough county officials have clearly lost their way.
- bravesoul2 1y ago
  Real wtf is the 40mph is OK in a place kids are (e.g. some go early or stay late or weekend sports) generally around but only drive slow at certain times.
  - t-writescode 1y ago
    Schools next to a stroad really aren't that unheard of in the United States.
    - bravesoul2 1y ago
      Yes so slow em down.
      - t-writescode 1y ago
        The previous context was, "Why on earth would there be a 40mph road next to a school" The surrounding context was a comment about how the flashing light WASN'T on and how the speed limit was, per the sign, only enforced when the flashing light is on. So, "why would it be 40mph?" because it's a stroad - a main thoroughfare through a town that's like maybe 5 or more lanes wide (including both directions and the 'turning lane'. There's value in asking the question why there's such a wild variance in speeds between "normal" speed and "school open/close" hours, and that's a useful question to ask and likely comes down to the car-centric politics that filled the United States for well over 50 years, and will take a very long time (and a lot of political clout) to fix. Depending on the size of the town, that may also, literally, be "the only road" that makes sense for that school to be on, so you have conflicting interests of a major, high-speed arterial road as well as the safety of children during particular hours. And to add *even more* to that, if you're going 40 and expect the speed limit to be 40 and everyone around you also expects the speed limit to be 40 (because that's the posted speed limit, and the sign isn't flashing), then you going 20 creates a 20mph differential between you and the rest of the traffic around you and now you're *going* to cause an accident.
hatthew 1y ago
> the signage requirements for school speed zones only require signs to designate when the school zone is in effect. So even if a school speed zone sign states that drivers must slow down “when [the light is] flashing,” that light doesn’t have to actually be flashing for a driver to get cited. I'm a little confused. If the light isn't flashing, doesn't that mean that the school zone isn't in effect? I don't understand what about the law makes it possible to get cited when the light isn't flashing.
- yahway 1y ago
  This is the very thing that happened to me. I didn't pay it, and refuse to pay it (The infraction occurred during COVID lockdowns) and my credit got docked for maybe one kr two points in the 850's. Fuck them. The day they impose it on my street we can talk.
  - m463 1y ago
    In california, this kind of stuff gets forcibly paid by you. I think they even go further and other unrelated california courts can prevent your driver's license or registration to be blocked. They can also intercept a tax refund, etc.
    - burnt-resistor 1y ago
      Yep. They can suspend your license over unpaid fines.
throwanem 1y ago
(Florida)
t-writescode 1y ago
I've been reading the law, linked in the news site; and, the document says, among many other things, in 316.0776(3)(a), (emphasis mine) "the county or municipality MUST NOTIFY the public that a speed detection system may be in use BY POSTING SIGNAGE indicating photographic or video enforcement of the school zone speed limits. Such signage SHALL CLEARLY DESIGNATE THE TIME PERIOD DURING WHICH THE SCHOOL ZONE SPEED LIMITS ARE ENFORCED using a speed detection system" So it looks like the flashing light is a backup and enhancer and that the more important field is the current time of day. Under the assumption that the time range text is easily visible, not covered in trees, not tiny, able to be seen by a person driving at the regularly posted speed from a distance that they can safely and reasonably slow down, etc, then it doesn't seem terrible. THAT SAID, they should absolutely *FIX* the blinking lights. In part of the article, it is declared that the traffic cameras caught 500,000 violations this school year ("since fall") across Florida, which is ... concerningly high. That's several thousand per day. Across all Florida, but still. Only about 3000 people protested across that; and, assuming all protests were genuine, that's less than a 1% broken light rate, which means broken lights are probably pretty quickly fixed. I hope the signage either already has prominent time ranges and/or will have prominent time ranges in the near future. My thoughts on this are certainly complicated.
- scherlock 1y ago
  We have a 3 way intersection with lights outside my kid's elementary school. 30 min before and after the school day begins and ends, there is no right on red. There is a sign that says "no right on red during x times". There is a red arrow for the right hand turn. The crossing guard stops cars EVERY DAY that try to turn. The cops come out and ticket once a week during the school year and it persists. So yeah, I can see 500,000 violations a year. A majority of drivers really don't look, so yeah, f'em.
m463 1y ago
You should also read up on towing laws. It is up there with civil forfeiture. I think the problem with many unjust laws is that the people who get trapped in them either have very little power, or because of the subject society sort of says guilty through involvement. Less wealthy people whose cars are towed usually have trouble raising the funds, or even getting a ride to the impound lot. Any delay is an almost exponential multiplier to fines and maybe even seizure of the vehicle.
reanimus 1y ago
I've actually heard people argue against having lights on signage for this exact reason: people shouldn't be reliant on lights that may or may not work to modulate their behavior when driving. They had been referring mainly to pedestrian crossing signs, but I think it applies here too. I generally treat any school speed limit sign as in effect if it's before nightfall as a rule of thumb.
kazinator 1y ago
Now I perhaps understand why the Garmin navigator amusingly warns be about approaching a school zones when it's 11:30 p.m. (way out of school hours) or Sunday (not a school day). Because, USA.
Spooky23 1y ago
These things are popping up all over the place now that the recovery funds from feds are gone. My city just implemented them and it’s a shitshow. It’s hard to argue about it because many people are sick of post-Covid driving behavior. Most traffic enforcement ceased during the pandemic and was slow to resume. I made a few trips from upstate to lower Manhattan in under two hours - you could just set the cruise at 95 and go. In my state, I think it will undercut complete streets and traffic calming in road engineering. One major avenue in my city is being reconstructed, I’m curious as to whether the city will allow the engineering changes to the road that will improve it and cost $750k-$1M of annual ticket revenue. There’s also the never mentioned surveillance issue. Most devices log 30 days of video and LPR every vehicle.
BrenBarn 1y ago
It's really sad how law in the US is caught in a three-way game of ping-pong between "let people do whatever they feel like doing", "let shady governments and law enforcement use law as a trap to fleece people", and "do everything slapdash and inconsistently so no one knows what's actually allowed". I think it's a fine idea to have automated enforcement of speeding. I'd like it here. But the point of it should be. . . to eliminate speeding. Not to raise revenue. And if you have poor and inconsistent signage and variable enforcement so that people aren't sure what speed is allowed, you didn't actually reduce speeding, you just increased fines.
beej71 1y ago
Someone needs to show up in hi vis and a helmet and hack the lights to flash all the time. Hit em right in the revenue.

22 points by josephcsible 1y ago

josephcsible 1y ago

[flagged]

bravesoul2 1y ago
Australia makes it clear, signs have the times on. Yes you need a watch to check but if in doubt just go slow.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- bruceallmighty 1y ago
  Kind of. They have times + "SCHOOL DAYS" - When are school days you may ask? Well, it's any day the school is in session (excluding holidays) and not every adult will know when school is in session or not. Many will also have flashing lights on them. However, the flashing lights do not override the time nor "SCHOOL DAYS". If the lights are flashing out-of-hours you can disregard the sign, but if the lights are NOT flashing and it IS the time+day then you need to respect the sign. ie. The flashing lights are irrelevant, and are only to catch attention.
- magicalhippo 1y ago
  Norway makes it easy. There's no time modification on the speed signs. It's slow all day err day near schools.
  - t-writescode 1y ago
    In a world where it is reasonable to have the road always be a slower speed for pedestrian, especially school, traffic this is by far the best option, imo.
throwaway173738 1y ago
Yeah my policy now is to go 20 if I see a sign regardless of whether it’s flashing. In my home state the places that use these demand that you incriminate someone else as a condition of eliminating the fine which looks illegal on its face because the state law governing their use only requires a statement that you weren’t driving.

WarOnPrivacy 1y ago

After 3 decades living in WestCentral FL counties, I learned something about local police departments. You can measure the ethics of the police chief (and to a lesser degree, county commissioners), by whether they embrace or refuse revenue-generating traffic cameras. a school speed zone camera caught him going 38 mph when he thought the speed limit was 40mph because the school speed zone sign wasn’t flashing when he was driving past an elementary school near his home. In fact, despite the sign stating, "20 mph when flashing," the sign isn’t even equipped with a flashing beacon. As a result, Weaver believes the cameras have become an easy money grab for counties and cities using a vaguely written law to cash in on drivers. Bad sheriffs and bad officials adore cash-spewing traffic cams. Hillsborough county officials have clearly lost their way.

bravesoul2 1y ago
Real wtf is the 40mph is OK in a place kids are (e.g. some go early or stay late or weekend sports) generally around but only drive slow at certain times.
- t-writescode 1y ago
  Schools next to a stroad really aren't that unheard of in the United States.
  - bravesoul2 1y ago
    Yes so slow em down.
    - t-writescode 1y ago
      The previous context was, "Why on earth would there be a 40mph road next to a school" The surrounding context was a comment about how the flashing light WASN'T on and how the speed limit was, per the sign, only enforced when the flashing light is on. So, "why would it be 40mph?" because it's a stroad - a main thoroughfare through a town that's like maybe 5 or more lanes wide (including both directions and the 'turning lane'. There's value in asking the question why there's such a wild variance in speeds between "normal" speed and "school open/close" hours, and that's a useful question to ask and likely comes down to the car-centric politics that filled the United States for well over 50 years, and will take a very long time (and a lot of political clout) to fix. Depending on the size of the town, that may also, literally, be "the only road" that makes sense for that school to be on, so you have conflicting interests of a major, high-speed arterial road as well as the safety of children during particular hours. And to add *even more* to that, if you're going 40 and expect the speed limit to be 40 and everyone around you also expects the speed limit to be 40 (because that's the posted speed limit, and the sign isn't flashing), then you going 20 creates a 20mph differential between you and the rest of the traffic around you and now you're *going* to cause an accident.

hatthew 1y ago

> the signage requirements for school speed zones only require signs to designate when the school zone is in effect. So even if a school speed zone sign states that drivers must slow down “when [the light is] flashing,” that light doesn’t have to actually be flashing for a driver to get cited. I'm a little confused. If the light isn't flashing, doesn't that mean that the school zone isn't in effect? I don't understand what about the law makes it possible to get cited when the light isn't flashing.

yahway 1y ago
This is the very thing that happened to me. I didn't pay it, and refuse to pay it (The infraction occurred during COVID lockdowns) and my credit got docked for maybe one kr two points in the 850's. Fuck them. The day they impose it on my street we can talk.
- m463 1y ago
  In california, this kind of stuff gets forcibly paid by you. I think they even go further and other unrelated california courts can prevent your driver's license or registration to be blocked. They can also intercept a tax refund, etc.
  - burnt-resistor 1y ago
    Yep. They can suspend your license over unpaid fines.

throwanem 1y ago

(Florida)

t-writescode 1y ago

I've been reading the law, linked in the news site; and, the document says, among many other things, in 316.0776(3)(a), (emphasis mine) "the county or municipality MUST NOTIFY the public that a speed detection system may be in use BY POSTING SIGNAGE indicating photographic or video enforcement of the school zone speed limits. Such signage SHALL CLEARLY DESIGNATE THE TIME PERIOD DURING WHICH THE SCHOOL ZONE SPEED LIMITS ARE ENFORCED using a speed detection system" So it looks like the flashing light is a backup and enhancer and that the more important field is the current time of day. Under the assumption that the time range text is easily visible, not covered in trees, not tiny, able to be seen by a person driving at the regularly posted speed from a distance that they can safely and reasonably slow down, etc, then it doesn't seem terrible. THAT SAID, they should absolutely *FIX* the blinking lights. In part of the article, it is declared that the traffic cameras caught 500,000 violations this school year ("since fall") across Florida, which is ... concerningly high. That's several thousand per day. Across all Florida, but still. Only about 3000 people protested across that; and, assuming all protests were genuine, that's less than a 1% broken light rate, which means broken lights are probably pretty quickly fixed. I hope the signage either already has prominent time ranges and/or will have prominent time ranges in the near future. My thoughts on this are certainly complicated.

scherlock 1y ago
We have a 3 way intersection with lights outside my kid's elementary school. 30 min before and after the school day begins and ends, there is no right on red. There is a sign that says "no right on red during x times". There is a red arrow for the right hand turn. The crossing guard stops cars EVERY DAY that try to turn. The cops come out and ticket once a week during the school year and it persists. So yeah, I can see 500,000 violations a year. A majority of drivers really don't look, so yeah, f'em.

m463 1y ago

You should also read up on towing laws. It is up there with civil forfeiture. I think the problem with many unjust laws is that the people who get trapped in them either have very little power, or because of the subject society sort of says guilty through involvement. Less wealthy people whose cars are towed usually have trouble raising the funds, or even getting a ride to the impound lot. Any delay is an almost exponential multiplier to fines and maybe even seizure of the vehicle.

reanimus 1y ago

I've actually heard people argue against having lights on signage for this exact reason: people shouldn't be reliant on lights that may or may not work to modulate their behavior when driving. They had been referring mainly to pedestrian crossing signs, but I think it applies here too. I generally treat any school speed limit sign as in effect if it's before nightfall as a rule of thumb.

kazinator 1y ago

Now I perhaps understand why the Garmin navigator amusingly warns be about approaching a school zones when it's 11:30 p.m. (way out of school hours) or Sunday (not a school day). Because, USA.

Spooky23 1y ago

These things are popping up all over the place now that the recovery funds from feds are gone. My city just implemented them and it’s a shitshow. It’s hard to argue about it because many people are sick of post-Covid driving behavior. Most traffic enforcement ceased during the pandemic and was slow to resume. I made a few trips from upstate to lower Manhattan in under two hours - you could just set the cruise at 95 and go. In my state, I think it will undercut complete streets and traffic calming in road engineering. One major avenue in my city is being reconstructed, I’m curious as to whether the city will allow the engineering changes to the road that will improve it and cost $750k-$1M of annual ticket revenue. There’s also the never mentioned surveillance issue. Most devices log 30 days of video and LPR every vehicle.

BrenBarn 1y ago

It's really sad how law in the US is caught in a three-way game of ping-pong between "let people do whatever they feel like doing", "let shady governments and law enforcement use law as a trap to fleece people", and "do everything slapdash and inconsistently so no one knows what's actually allowed". I think it's a fine idea to have automated enforcement of speeding. I'd like it here. But the point of it should be. . . to eliminate speeding. Not to raise revenue. And if you have poor and inconsistent signage and variable enforcement so that people aren't sure what speed is allowed, you didn't actually reduce speeding, you just increased fines.

beej71 1y ago

Someone needs to show up in hi vis and a helmet and hack the lights to flash all the time. Hit em right in the revenue.