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> 2021 - saved millions of lives Not really, the virus mutating into less aggressive strains did. Reducing counter-productive treatments (like ventilators) hel

> 2021 - saved millions of lives Not really, the virus mutating into less aggressive strains did. Reducing counter-productive treatments (like ventilators) helped greatly too.

worik 1y ago
> Not really, Yes, really
- OCASMv2 1y ago
  [flagged]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
yahoozoo 1y ago
[flagged]
verdverm 1y ago
The problem is that this is so ideological for some people, damn the science and facts, lies and positioning are all that matter in the post-truth world Imagine believing that in a world of billions, that the vaccine didn't save at least 2M lives through reductions in symptoms and spread. The same is true for virus mutations
- OCASMv2 1y ago
  It's perfectly reasonable to believe that when the vaccine in question is crap that doesn't prevent transmission, whatever limited positive effects it has last very little time and has severe side effects like heart inflammation.
lamontcg 1y ago
The virus didn't mutate into less aggressive strains, everyone got T-cells through vaccination or infection, which made subsequent infection less severe. Which is borne out through the higher death rate in Republicans who didn't get vaccinated, compared to Democrats who did. And we had situations like Hong Kong which got absolutely hammered by Omicron, even though that strain was supposedly "less severe", because of the low levels of prior infection and vaccination when Omicron hit there.
- OCASMv2 1y ago
  > Which is borne out through the higher death rate in Republicans who didn't get vaccinated, compared to Democrats who did. Or because republicans never took the threat seriously and didn't took effective preventive measures like reducing social contact, increasing their exposure risk. > And we had situations like Hong Kong which got absolutely hammered by Omicron, even though that strain was supposedly "less severe", because of the low levels of prior infection and vaccination when Omicron hit there. Hong Kong focused all its efforts in preventing the virus to even get there. Once it broke through they were unprepared to deal with it, hence the bad outcome.
  - lamontcg 1y ago
    > Or because republicans never took the threat seriously and didn't took effective preventive measures like reducing social contact, increasing their exposure risk. Everyone got exposed eventually. Republicans who didn't vaccinate died at a higher rate when they got exposed. > Hong Kong focused all its efforts in preventing the virus to even get there. Yes, that's why it produced a good example of an immunologically naive population, late in the pandemic. > Once it broke through they were unprepared to deal with it, hence the bad outcome. Which was Omicron, and it turned out to be just as deadly. Which completely falsifies your argument that mutation led to less deadly strains. We can see in Hong Kong that it was just as deadly. In the United States it wasn't, and the difference is due to immunity from vaccination and natural infection.
    - OCASMv2 1y ago
      > Everyone got exposed eventually. Republicans who didn't vaccinate died at a higher rate when they got exposed. Again, due to differences in risk behavior not limited to anti-covid measures. > Which was Omicron, and it turned out to be just as deadly. Which completely falsifies your argument that mutation led to less deadly strains. Not really since there's no mention of the treatment or lack thereof used there. You assume the outcome is due to lack of previous exposure when it can just be poor management. But hey, at least is nice to see people who admit natural infection confers protection. That wasn't the case during the pandemic.
insane_dreamer 1y ago
It was a combination of these factors that saved lives. mRNA vaccines played an important part. Everyone can calm down now.
chimprich 1y ago
> Not really, the virus mutating into less aggressive strains did. This didn't happen. There was no selection pressure on the virus to mutate to a "less aggressive" form. To think there was is to fundamentally misunderstand the science here. The incubation period was plenty long enough for the virus to spread before incapacitating the host. All the selection pressure was for the virus to become more virulent - and that is precisely what happened. We saw multiple strains appear which were harder to deal with. > Reducing counter-productive treatments (like ventilators) helped greatly too. This had a negligible impact. Patients were only put on ventilation when they were already very sick and at a high chance of death. Worldwide only a tiny proportion of deaths came about in this way. Even rich countries only had ventilators in the tens of thousands. Compare that to the billions who received vaccinations.
- OCASMv2 1y ago
  > The incubation period was plenty long enough for the virus to spread before incapacitating the host. All the selection pressure was for the virus to become more virulent - and that is precisely what happened. We saw multiple strains appear which were harder to deal with. Is Omicron equally as deadly as Delta? No. > This had a negligible impact. Patients were only put on ventilation when they were already very sick and at a high chance of death. Worldwide only a tiny proportion of deaths came about in this way. Even rich countries only had ventilators in the tens of thousands. Compare that to the billions who received vaccinations. That's just one example. Not using effective antivirals is another one. With time, treatments improved and so did the outcomes, regardless of vaccination status.
  - chimprich 1y ago
    > Is Omicron equally as deadly as Delta? No. It depends how you look at it. Omicron had a lower CFR, but higher transmissibility, so arguably worse. There is no inherent selection pressure on viruses to mutate towards being less aggressive. Omicron had a transmission advantage that coincided with being a bit less lethal, but often being more transmissible correlates with being more lethal (e.g. delta variant). We could have easily had a more lethal omicron variant emerge if it wasn't for vaccination effectively halting the pandemic. Far more people were saved by vaccination than any luck on random mutation in the virus. > With time, treatments improved They did. Like the use of dextramethasone. Still a small improvement compared to the dramatic success of the vaccines. > and so did the outcomes, regardless of vaccination status. No. Vaccinated individuals were better off in pretty much every measurable statistic. By any reasonable measurement vaccination saved millions of lives.

> 2021 - saved millions of lives Not really, the virus mutating into less aggressive strains did. Reducing counter-productive treatments (like ventilators) helped greatly too.

worik 1y ago

> Not really, Yes, really

OCASMv2 1y ago
[flagged]
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

yahoozoo 1y ago

[flagged]

verdverm 1y ago

The problem is that this is so ideological for some people, damn the science and facts, lies and positioning are all that matter in the post-truth world Imagine believing that in a world of billions, that the vaccine didn't save at least 2M lives through reductions in symptoms and spread. The same is true for virus mutations

OCASMv2 1y ago
It's perfectly reasonable to believe that when the vaccine in question is crap that doesn't prevent transmission, whatever limited positive effects it has last very little time and has severe side effects like heart inflammation.

lamontcg 1y ago

The virus didn't mutate into less aggressive strains, everyone got T-cells through vaccination or infection, which made subsequent infection less severe. Which is borne out through the higher death rate in Republicans who didn't get vaccinated, compared to Democrats who did. And we had situations like Hong Kong which got absolutely hammered by Omicron, even though that strain was supposedly "less severe", because of the low levels of prior infection and vaccination when Omicron hit there.

OCASMv2 1y ago
> Which is borne out through the higher death rate in Republicans who didn't get vaccinated, compared to Democrats who did. Or because republicans never took the threat seriously and didn't took effective preventive measures like reducing social contact, increasing their exposure risk. > And we had situations like Hong Kong which got absolutely hammered by Omicron, even though that strain was supposedly "less severe", because of the low levels of prior infection and vaccination when Omicron hit there. Hong Kong focused all its efforts in preventing the virus to even get there. Once it broke through they were unprepared to deal with it, hence the bad outcome.
- lamontcg 1y ago
  > Or because republicans never took the threat seriously and didn't took effective preventive measures like reducing social contact, increasing their exposure risk. Everyone got exposed eventually. Republicans who didn't vaccinate died at a higher rate when they got exposed. > Hong Kong focused all its efforts in preventing the virus to even get there. Yes, that's why it produced a good example of an immunologically naive population, late in the pandemic. > Once it broke through they were unprepared to deal with it, hence the bad outcome. Which was Omicron, and it turned out to be just as deadly. Which completely falsifies your argument that mutation led to less deadly strains. We can see in Hong Kong that it was just as deadly. In the United States it wasn't, and the difference is due to immunity from vaccination and natural infection.
  - OCASMv2 1y ago
    > Everyone got exposed eventually. Republicans who didn't vaccinate died at a higher rate when they got exposed. Again, due to differences in risk behavior not limited to anti-covid measures. > Which was Omicron, and it turned out to be just as deadly. Which completely falsifies your argument that mutation led to less deadly strains. Not really since there's no mention of the treatment or lack thereof used there. You assume the outcome is due to lack of previous exposure when it can just be poor management. But hey, at least is nice to see people who admit natural infection confers protection. That wasn't the case during the pandemic.

insane_dreamer 1y ago

It was a combination of these factors that saved lives. mRNA vaccines played an important part. Everyone can calm down now.

chimprich 1y ago

> Not really, the virus mutating into less aggressive strains did. This didn't happen. There was no selection pressure on the virus to mutate to a "less aggressive" form. To think there was is to fundamentally misunderstand the science here. The incubation period was plenty long enough for the virus to spread before incapacitating the host. All the selection pressure was for the virus to become more virulent - and that is precisely what happened. We saw multiple strains appear which were harder to deal with. > Reducing counter-productive treatments (like ventilators) helped greatly too. This had a negligible impact. Patients were only put on ventilation when they were already very sick and at a high chance of death. Worldwide only a tiny proportion of deaths came about in this way. Even rich countries only had ventilators in the tens of thousands. Compare that to the billions who received vaccinations.

OCASMv2 1y ago
> The incubation period was plenty long enough for the virus to spread before incapacitating the host. All the selection pressure was for the virus to become more virulent - and that is precisely what happened. We saw multiple strains appear which were harder to deal with. Is Omicron equally as deadly as Delta? No. > This had a negligible impact. Patients were only put on ventilation when they were already very sick and at a high chance of death. Worldwide only a tiny proportion of deaths came about in this way. Even rich countries only had ventilators in the tens of thousands. Compare that to the billions who received vaccinations. That's just one example. Not using effective antivirals is another one. With time, treatments improved and so did the outcomes, regardless of vaccination status.
- chimprich 1y ago
  > Is Omicron equally as deadly as Delta? No. It depends how you look at it. Omicron had a lower CFR, but higher transmissibility, so arguably worse. There is no inherent selection pressure on viruses to mutate towards being less aggressive. Omicron had a transmission advantage that coincided with being a bit less lethal, but often being more transmissible correlates with being more lethal (e.g. delta variant). We could have easily had a more lethal omicron variant emerge if it wasn't for vaccination effectively halting the pandemic. Far more people were saved by vaccination than any luck on random mutation in the virus. > With time, treatments improved They did. Like the use of dextramethasone. Still a small improvement compared to the dramatic success of the vaccines. > and so did the outcomes, regardless of vaccination status. No. Vaccinated individuals were better off in pretty much every measurable statistic. By any reasonable measurement vaccination saved millions of lives.