8 ms·

> most information hostile environments in human history Is it though? East Germany comes to mind as well as the rest of the Cold War countries behind the Iron

> most information hostile environments in human history Is it though? East Germany comes to mind as well as the rest of the Cold War countries behind the Iron Curtain. China seems to be pretty hostile as well. In the US, it is still much easier to find real information that counters the propaganda than it is in any of those other countries. There's no Great Firewall to bypass. You don't even need to do anything anonymously. Yes, the current administration is doing its damnedest to pull the wool over the eyes of their followers, but it's only effective for them. Nobody else is fooled nor stopping their publishing of the opposition to the propaganda.

stephen_g 1y ago
I mean, maybe this way is worse. I can see how it could be far more obvious that the propaganda is BS when it's being pushed at you from every outlet and every form of media. Makes it more clear that it's controlled. Yet at the moment where there is still diversity, people can make the mistake of thinking that the propaganda is just a difference of opinion so perhaps trust it more.
- cgio 1y ago
  To me the propaganda is still blatant and there is only an engineered illusion of diversity, only inasmuch as it keeps people opinionated on the things that don’t matter. There’s also no foundational or universal desire for diversity, so alternative propaganda contexts may induce different focus areas.
SCUSKU 1y ago
What you're describing is an Orwellian dystopia, where a boot forces you to think a certain way. We live in a Huxleyan dystopia where there is so much so much to distract you that you become submissive.
- galangalalgol 1y ago
  The demographic collapse will likely lead to artificial wombs and llm powered vulcan style teaching pits crossed with diamond age primers. Huxley was more prescient than I thought when teading brave new world. I think the nation that has its primers teach the vat-made labor force rhetoric, logic and critical thinking will have lower gdp, but higher stability.
  - amy_petrik 1y ago
    I disagree, this is neither an Orwellian nor an Huxelian dystopia, but a Gibsonian AI megacorp dystopia
  - germinalphrase 1y ago
    Read “The Island” for a different flavor of Huxley.
- chrisweekly 1y ago
  Yes, this, precisely. Our increasingly dystopian present features a fair amount of Big Brother, but Brave New World's soma is what drives and enables it, along w/ aspects of Gilliam's "Brazil".... There is also so much that's womderful and amazing and positive. No light w/out darkness, "no mud, no lotus", etc. -- which IMHO it's increasingly important to focus on, deliberately.
- sussmannbaka 1y ago
  This would be nice, however we get both the boot AND the flood of information.
Jensson 1y ago
> East Germany comes to mind as well as the rest of the Cold War countries behind the Iron Curtain Psychology around ads and how to manipulate peoples thoughts were not nearly as well understood at the time. Large scale studies based on data collected of peoples behavior on computers has lead to dramatically better ability to manipulate and nudge people to do what you want. The information environment was more oppressive there, but it was easier for people to have their own thoughts since the marketing was forced and blatant but way less manipulative and devious.
modzu 1y ago
"Great Firewall"... thats propaganda my friend. American Internet is not open either, its just censored differently
- dylan604 1y ago
  Up until recently with SCOTUS saying age verification is not rights infringing, I would have disagreed. Even with that, what else is blocked by default? It's easy to get hyperbolic in partisan discussions, but seriously, what else is being blocked that counters administration propaganda? Yes, Trump admin is changing data on the websites it controls. That's the right of any sysadmin to control and publish content they want. It would be a real bit of censorship if the admin said no other websites anywhere in its jurisdiction could publish contrary data. You can scream about FB/Twitt...er,X/socialPlatformOfChoice making decisions on its website, but again, I go back to it's their site to manage. You can choose to use it based on those decisions, but again, those are not the only sites offering contrary data.
- UltraSane 1y ago
  The Chinese Internet is censored far more than the US internet in degree and kind.
dvt 1y ago
[flagged]
- dylan604 1y ago
  I never said or meant to imply by not specifically saying something that the opposing view was unavailable back then. That's just willfully trying to twist the narrative to a purpose I don't know why it is necessary. But since we're here, we can compare/contrast. RFE/RL could broadcast whatever it wanted. If you received it and heard the contrary views from what official stance was, you can pretty much just accept it. You couldn't just go and search for more information in a browser/app. Seeing video of things just wasn't happening over the air on your wireless. You couldn't jump onto social platform of choice and see images in real time. Information is so freely flowing today it is a joke to compare the two. >Typical American response confidently knowing literally nothing of what they speak of Sadly, this reads from someone with a person grudge that has nothing to do with the conversation. If you honestly think there was more information freely available then as compared to know, you've just disillusioned yourself for whatever reason. Yes, there was resistance back during the Cold War. Fax machines FTW. That still just does not compare to how freely flowing information is today. To call today the "most information hostile environments in human history" is just nonsense. How can you even compare it?
  - lossolo 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - dylan604 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - tomhow 1y ago
        This kind of personally-attacking comment is against the guidelines on HN, no matter what you're replying to. We've asked you before to avoid posting comments that break the guidelines, so it's annoying to have to ask you again. HN is only a place where people want to participate because others make the effort to keep the standards up. Please do your part if you want to keep participating here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
AlecSchueler 1y ago
> one of the most ONE of the most. That you can highlight a few others where things might have been worse doesn't negate that claim.
nosignono 1y ago
Different kinds of hostility, no lesser in magnitude.

stephen_g 1y ago

I mean, maybe this way is worse. I can see how it could be far more obvious that the propaganda is BS when it's being pushed at you from every outlet and every form of media. Makes it more clear that it's controlled. Yet at the moment where there is still diversity, people can make the mistake of thinking that the propaganda is just a difference of opinion so perhaps trust it more.

cgio 1y ago
To me the propaganda is still blatant and there is only an engineered illusion of diversity, only inasmuch as it keeps people opinionated on the things that don’t matter. There’s also no foundational or universal desire for diversity, so alternative propaganda contexts may induce different focus areas.

SCUSKU 1y ago

What you're describing is an Orwellian dystopia, where a boot forces you to think a certain way. We live in a Huxleyan dystopia where there is so much so much to distract you that you become submissive.

galangalalgol 1y ago
The demographic collapse will likely lead to artificial wombs and llm powered vulcan style teaching pits crossed with diamond age primers. Huxley was more prescient than I thought when teading brave new world. I think the nation that has its primers teach the vat-made labor force rhetoric, logic and critical thinking will have lower gdp, but higher stability.
- amy_petrik 1y ago
  I disagree, this is neither an Orwellian nor an Huxelian dystopia, but a Gibsonian AI megacorp dystopia
- germinalphrase 1y ago
  Read “The Island” for a different flavor of Huxley.
chrisweekly 1y ago
Yes, this, precisely. Our increasingly dystopian present features a fair amount of Big Brother, but Brave New World's soma is what drives and enables it, along w/ aspects of Gilliam's "Brazil".... There is also so much that's womderful and amazing and positive. No light w/out darkness, "no mud, no lotus", etc. -- which IMHO it's increasingly important to focus on, deliberately.
sussmannbaka 1y ago
This would be nice, however we get both the boot AND the flood of information.

Jensson 1y ago

> East Germany comes to mind as well as the rest of the Cold War countries behind the Iron Curtain Psychology around ads and how to manipulate peoples thoughts were not nearly as well understood at the time. Large scale studies based on data collected of peoples behavior on computers has lead to dramatically better ability to manipulate and nudge people to do what you want. The information environment was more oppressive there, but it was easier for people to have their own thoughts since the marketing was forced and blatant but way less manipulative and devious.

modzu 1y ago

"Great Firewall"... thats propaganda my friend. American Internet is not open either, its just censored differently

dylan604 1y ago
Up until recently with SCOTUS saying age verification is not rights infringing, I would have disagreed. Even with that, what else is blocked by default? It's easy to get hyperbolic in partisan discussions, but seriously, what else is being blocked that counters administration propaganda? Yes, Trump admin is changing data on the websites it controls. That's the right of any sysadmin to control and publish content they want. It would be a real bit of censorship if the admin said no other websites anywhere in its jurisdiction could publish contrary data. You can scream about FB/Twitt...er,X/socialPlatformOfChoice making decisions on its website, but again, I go back to it's their site to manage. You can choose to use it based on those decisions, but again, those are not the only sites offering contrary data.
UltraSane 1y ago
The Chinese Internet is censored far more than the US internet in degree and kind.

dvt 1y ago

[flagged]

dylan604 1y ago
I never said or meant to imply by not specifically saying something that the opposing view was unavailable back then. That's just willfully trying to twist the narrative to a purpose I don't know why it is necessary. But since we're here, we can compare/contrast. RFE/RL could broadcast whatever it wanted. If you received it and heard the contrary views from what official stance was, you can pretty much just accept it. You couldn't just go and search for more information in a browser/app. Seeing video of things just wasn't happening over the air on your wireless. You couldn't jump onto social platform of choice and see images in real time. Information is so freely flowing today it is a joke to compare the two. >Typical American response confidently knowing literally nothing of what they speak of Sadly, this reads from someone with a person grudge that has nothing to do with the conversation. If you honestly think there was more information freely available then as compared to know, you've just disillusioned yourself for whatever reason. Yes, there was resistance back during the Cold War. Fax machines FTW. That still just does not compare to how freely flowing information is today. To call today the "most information hostile environments in human history" is just nonsense. How can you even compare it?
- lossolo 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - dylan604 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - tomhow 1y ago
      This kind of personally-attacking comment is against the guidelines on HN, no matter what you're replying to. We've asked you before to avoid posting comments that break the guidelines, so it's annoying to have to ask you again. HN is only a place where people want to participate because others make the effort to keep the standards up. Please do your part if you want to keep participating here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

AlecSchueler 1y ago

> one of the most ONE of the most. That you can highlight a few others where things might have been worse doesn't negate that claim.

nosignono 1y ago

Different kinds of hostility, no lesser in magnitude.