4 ms·

When people post this stuff, it's like, are you also confused that Nike sells shoes AND shorts AND shirts, and there's different colors and skus for each articl

When people post this stuff, it's like, are you also confused that Nike sells shoes AND shorts AND shirts, and there's different colors and skus for each article of clothing, and sometimes they sell direct to consumer and other times to stores and to universities, and also there's sales and promotions, etc, etc? It's almost as if companies sell more than one product. Why is this the top comment on so many threads about tech products?

Imustaskforhelp 1y ago
Because I think that claude has gone beyond tech niche at this point.. Or maybe that's me, but still whether its through the likes of those vibe coding apps like lovable bolt etc. at the end of the day, Most people are using the same tool which is claude since its mostly superior in coding (questionable now with oss models, but I still use it through kiro). People expect this stuff to be simple when in reality its not and there is some frustation I suppose.
furyofantares 1y ago
In this case, they tried something and were told they were doing it wrong, and they know there's more than one way to do it wrong - wrong model, wrong tool using the model, wrong prompting, wrong task that you're trying to use it for. And of course you could be doing it right but the people saying it works great could themselves be wrong about how good it is. On top of that it costs both money and time/effort investment to figure out if you're doing it wrong. It's understandable to want some clarity. I think it's pretty different from buying shoes.
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  Is it though? People complain about sore feet and hear they wear the wrong kind of shoes so they go to the store where they have to spend money to find out while trying to navigate between dress shoes, minimal shoes, running shoes, hiking shoes etc etc., they have to know their size, ask for assistance in trying them on...
- evilduck 1y ago
  > I think it's pretty different from buying shoes. Shoe shopping is pretty complex, more so than trialing an AI model in my opinion. Are you a construction worker, a banker, a cashier or a driver? Are you walking 5 miles everyday or mostly sedentary? Do you require steel toed shoes? How long are you expecting them to last and what are you willing to pay? Are you going to wear them on long runs or take them river kayaking? Do they need to be water resistant, waterproof or highly breathable? Do you want glued, welted, or stitch down construction? What about flat feet or arch support? Does shoe weight matter? What clothing are you going to wear them with? Are you going to be dancing with them? Do the shoes need a break in period or are they ready to wear? Does the available style match your preferences? What about availability, are you ok having them made to order or do you require something in stock now? By comparison I can try 10 different AI services without even needing to stand up for a break while I can't buy good dress shoes in the same physical store as a pair of football cleats.
  - kelnos 1y ago
    > Shoe shopping is pretty complex, more so than trialing an AI model in my opinion. Oh c'mon, now you're just being disingenuous, trying to make an argument for argument's sake. No, shoe shopping is not more complicated than trialing a LLM. For all of those questions about shoes you are posing, either a) a purchaser won't care and won't need to ask them, or b) they already know they have specific requirements and will know what to ask. With an LLM, a newbie doesn't even know what they're getting into, let alone what to ask or where to start. > By comparison I can try 10 different AI services without even needing to stand up for a break I can't. I have no idea how to do that. It sounds like you've been following the space for a while, and you're letting your knowledge blind you to the idea that many (most?) people don't have your experience.
    - UncleEntity 1y ago
      Just play with the 'free tier' on whatever website does the AI thing and figure it out. Maybe there's a need to try ten different ones but I just stuck with one and can now convince it to do what I want it to do pretty successfully.
    - 1y ago
ryandrake 1y ago
Hey, I'm open to the idea that I'm just stupid. But, if people in your target market (software developers) don't even understand your product line and need a HOWTO+glossary to figure it out, maybe there's also a branding/messaging/onboarding problem?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- DougBTX 1y ago
  My hot take is that your friend should show you what they’re using, not just dismiss Copilot and leave you hanging!
gmueckl 1y ago
When you walk into a store, you can see and touch all of these products. It's intuitive. With all this LLM cruft all you get is essentially the same old chat interface that's like the year 2000 called and wants its on-line chat websites back. The only thing other than a text box that you usually get is a model selector dropdown squirreled away in a corner somewhere. And that dropdown doesn't really explain the differences between the cryptic sounding options (GPT-something, Claude Whatever...). Of course this confuses people!
- derefr 1y ago
  Claude.ai, ChatGPT, etc. are finished B2C products. They're black boxes, encapsulated experiences. Consumers don't want to pick a model, or know what model they're using; they just want to "talk to AI", and for the system to know which model is best to answer any given question. I would bet that for these companies, if their frontend observes you using the little model override button, that gets instrumented as an "oops" event in their metrics — something they aim to minimize. What you're looking for, are the landing pages of the B2B API products underlying these B2C experiences. That would be https://www.anthropic.com/claude https://www.anthropic.com/claude, https://openai.com/api/ https://openai.com/api/, etc. (In general, search "[AI company] API".) From those B2B landing pages, you can usually click through to pages with details about each of their models. Here's the model page corresponding to this news announcement, for example: https://www.anthropic.com/claude/opus https://www.anthropic.com/claude/opus (Also, note how these B2B pages are on the AI companies' own corporate domains; whereas their B2C products have their own dedicated domains. From their perspective, their B2C offerings are essentially treated as separate companies that happen to consume their APIs — a "reference use-case" — rather than as a part of what the B2B company sells.)
margalabargala 1y ago
If anything, Anthropic has the product lineup that makes the most sense. Higher numbers mean better model. Haiku < Sonnet < Opus which translates to length/size. Free < Pro < Max. Contrast to something like OpenAI. They've got gpt4.1, 4o, and o4. Which of these are newer than one another? How do people remember which of o4 and 4o are which?
hvb2 1y ago
Not sure is this is sarcasm I'm assuming not. You're comparing well understood products that are wildly different to products with code names. Even someone who has never wore a t-shirt will see it on a mannequin and know where it goes. I'm sorry but I cannot tell what the difference is between sonnet and opus. Unless one is for music... So in this case you read the docs. Which is, in your analogy, you going to the Nike store and reading up on if a tshirt goes on your upper or lower body.
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  Surely anyone interested in taking out a Claude subscription knows broadly what they're going to use an LLM for. It's more like going to the Nike store and asking about the difference between the Vaporfly 3 and the Pegasus 41. I know they're all shoes and therefore go on my feet, but I don't know what the difference is unless one is better for riding horses?
potatolicious 1y ago
Eh, this seems like a take that reeks a bit of "everyone is stupid except me". I do know the answer to OP's question but that's because I pickle my brain in this stuff. It is legitimately confusing. The analogy to different SKUs strikes me also inaccurate. This isn't the difference between shoes, shirts, and shorts - it's more as if a company sells three t-shirts but you can't really tell what's different about them. It's Claude, Claude, and Claude. Which ones code for you? Well, actually, all of them (Code, web/desktop Claude, and the API can all do this) Which ones do you ask about daily sundry queries? Well, two of them (web/desktop Claude, but also the API, but not Code). Well, except if your sundry query is about a programming topic, in which case Code can also do that! Ok, if I do want to use this to write code, which one should I use? Honestly, any of them, and the company does a poor job of explaining why you would use each option. "Which of these very similar-seeming t-shirts should I get?" "You knob. How are posts like this even being posted." is just an extremely poor way to approach other people, IMO.
- ryandrake 1y ago
  > It's Claude, Claude, and Claude. Which ones code for you? Thanks for articulating the confusion better than I could! I feel it's a similar branding problem as other tech companies have: I'm watching Apple TV+ on my Apple TV software running on my Apple TV connected to my Google TV that isn't actually manufactured by Google. But that Google TV also has an Apple TV app that can play Apple TV+.
  - potatolicious 1y ago
    It's a bit worse than a branding problem honestly, since there's legitimate overlap between products, because ultimately they're different expressions of the same underlying LLMs. I'm not sure if you ever got a good rundown, but the tl;dr is that the 3 products ("Desktop", Code, and API) all expose the same underlying models, but are given different prompts, tools, and context management techniques that make them behave fairly differently and affect how you interact with them. - The API is the bare model itself. It has some coding ability because that's inherent to the model - you can ask it to generate code and copy and paste it for example. You normally wouldn't use this except that if you're using some Copilot-type IDE integration where the IDE is doing the work of talking to the model for you and integrating it into your developer experience. In that case you provide API key and the IDE does the heavy lifting. - The desktop app is actually a half-decent coder. It's capable of producing specific artifacts, distinguishing between multiple "files" it's writing for you, and revisiting previously-written code. "Oh, actually rewrite this in Go." is for example a thing it can totally do. I find it useful for diagnosing issues interactively. - "Claude Code" is a CLI-only wrapper around the model. Think of it like Anthropic's first-party IDE integration, except there's not an IDE, just the CLI. In this case the integration gives the tool broad powers to actually navigate your filesystem, read specific files, write to specific files, run shell commands like builds and tests, etc. These are all functions that an IDE integration would also give you, but this is done in a Claude-y way. My personal take is: try Claude Code, since as long as you're halfway comfortable with a CLI it's pretty usable. If you really want a direct IDE integration you can go with the IDE+API key route, though keep in mind that you might end up paying more (Claude Code is all-you-can-eat-with-rate-limits, where API keys will... just keep going).
tomrod 1y ago
> Why is this the top comment on so many threads about tech products? Because you overestimate the difference that the representative person understands. A more accurate analogy is that Nike sells green-blue shoes and Nike sells blue-green shoes, but the blue-green shoes add 3 feet to your jump and green-blue shoes add 20 mph to your 100 yard dash sprint. You know you need one of them for tomorrow's hurdles race but have no idea which is meaningful for your need.
- ryandrake 1y ago
  Also, the green-blue shoes charge per-step, but the blue-green shoes are billed monthly by signing up for BlueGreenPro+ or BlueGreenMax+, each with a hidden step limit but BlueGreenMax+ is the one that gives you access to the Cyan step model which is better; plus the green-blue shoes are only useful when sprinting, but the blue-green shoes can be used in many different events, but only through the Nike blue-green API that only some track&field venues have adopted...
true_religion 1y ago
This is like being told to buy Nike shoes. Then when you proudly display your new cleats, they tell you "no, I meant you should by basketball shoes. The cleats are terrible."
squeaky-clean 1y ago
Which Nike shoe is best for basketball? The Nike Dunk, Air Force 1, Air Jordan, LeBron 20, LeBron XXI Prime 93, Kobe IX elite, Giannis Freak 7, GT Cut, GT Cut 3, GT Cut 3 Turbo, GT Hustle 3, or the KD18? At least with those you can buy whatever you think is coolest. Which Claude model and interface should the average programmer use?
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  What's the average programmer? Is it someone who likes CLI tools? Or who likes IDE integration? Different strokes for different folks and surely the average programmer understands what environment they will be most comfortable in.
  - nawgz 1y ago
    > Different strokes for different folks and surely the average programmer understands what environment they will be most comfortable in. That's a silly claim to me, we're talking about a completely new environment where you prompt an AI to develop code, and therefore an "average programmer" is unlikely to have any meaningful experience or intuition with this flow. That is exactly what GP is talking about - where does he plug in the AI? What tradeoffs are there to different options? The other day I had someone judge me for asking this question by dismissively saying "dont say youve still been using ChatGPT and copy/paste", which made me laugh - I don't use AI at all, so who was he looking down on?
    - AlecSchueler 1y ago
      To me that's the silly argument. How many different tools have you ever used? New build system? New linter? How did you know if you wanted to run those on the command line or in your IDE? And it seems the story you shared sort of proves the point: the web interface worked fine for you and you didn't need to question it until someone was needlessly rude about it.
      - nawgz 1y ago
kelnos 1y ago
Because the offerings are not simple. Your Nike example is silly; everyone knows what to do with shoes and shorts and shirts, and why they might want (or not want) to buy those particular items from Nike. But for someone who hasn't been immersed in the "LLM scene", it's hard to understand why you might want to use one particular model of another. It's hard to understand why you might want to do per-request API pricing vs. a bucketed usage plan. This is a new technology, and the landscape is changing weekly. I think maybe it might be nice if folks around here were a bit more charitable and empathetic about this stuff. There's no reason to get all gatekeep-y about this kind of knowledge, and complaining about these questions just sounds condescending and doesn't do anyone any good.
pdntspa 1y ago
Because few seem to want to expend the effort to dive in and understand something. Instead they want the details spoonfed to them by marketing or something. I absolutely loathe this timeline we're stuck in.

Imustaskforhelp 1y ago

Because I think that claude has gone beyond tech niche at this point.. Or maybe that's me, but still whether its through the likes of those vibe coding apps like lovable bolt etc. at the end of the day, Most people are using the same tool which is claude since its mostly superior in coding (questionable now with oss models, but I still use it through kiro). People expect this stuff to be simple when in reality its not and there is some frustation I suppose.

furyofantares 1y ago

In this case, they tried something and were told they were doing it wrong, and they know there's more than one way to do it wrong - wrong model, wrong tool using the model, wrong prompting, wrong task that you're trying to use it for. And of course you could be doing it right but the people saying it works great could themselves be wrong about how good it is. On top of that it costs both money and time/effort investment to figure out if you're doing it wrong. It's understandable to want some clarity. I think it's pretty different from buying shoes.

AlecSchueler 1y ago
Is it though? People complain about sore feet and hear they wear the wrong kind of shoes so they go to the store where they have to spend money to find out while trying to navigate between dress shoes, minimal shoes, running shoes, hiking shoes etc etc., they have to know their size, ask for assistance in trying them on...
evilduck 1y ago
> I think it's pretty different from buying shoes. Shoe shopping is pretty complex, more so than trialing an AI model in my opinion. Are you a construction worker, a banker, a cashier or a driver? Are you walking 5 miles everyday or mostly sedentary? Do you require steel toed shoes? How long are you expecting them to last and what are you willing to pay? Are you going to wear them on long runs or take them river kayaking? Do they need to be water resistant, waterproof or highly breathable? Do you want glued, welted, or stitch down construction? What about flat feet or arch support? Does shoe weight matter? What clothing are you going to wear them with? Are you going to be dancing with them? Do the shoes need a break in period or are they ready to wear? Does the available style match your preferences? What about availability, are you ok having them made to order or do you require something in stock now? By comparison I can try 10 different AI services without even needing to stand up for a break while I can't buy good dress shoes in the same physical store as a pair of football cleats.
- kelnos 1y ago
  > Shoe shopping is pretty complex, more so than trialing an AI model in my opinion. Oh c'mon, now you're just being disingenuous, trying to make an argument for argument's sake. No, shoe shopping is not more complicated than trialing a LLM. For all of those questions about shoes you are posing, either a) a purchaser won't care and won't need to ask them, or b) they already know they have specific requirements and will know what to ask. With an LLM, a newbie doesn't even know what they're getting into, let alone what to ask or where to start. > By comparison I can try 10 different AI services without even needing to stand up for a break I can't. I have no idea how to do that. It sounds like you've been following the space for a while, and you're letting your knowledge blind you to the idea that many (most?) people don't have your experience.
  - UncleEntity 1y ago
    Just play with the 'free tier' on whatever website does the AI thing and figure it out. Maybe there's a need to try ten different ones but I just stuck with one and can now convince it to do what I want it to do pretty successfully.
  - 1y ago

ryandrake 1y ago

Hey, I'm open to the idea that I'm just stupid. But, if people in your target market (software developers) don't even understand your product line and need a HOWTO+glossary to figure it out, maybe there's also a branding/messaging/onboarding problem?

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
DougBTX 1y ago
My hot take is that your friend should show you what they’re using, not just dismiss Copilot and leave you hanging!

gmueckl 1y ago

When you walk into a store, you can see and touch all of these products. It's intuitive. With all this LLM cruft all you get is essentially the same old chat interface that's like the year 2000 called and wants its on-line chat websites back. The only thing other than a text box that you usually get is a model selector dropdown squirreled away in a corner somewhere. And that dropdown doesn't really explain the differences between the cryptic sounding options (GPT-something, Claude Whatever...). Of course this confuses people!

derefr 1y ago
Claude.ai, ChatGPT, etc. are finished B2C products. They're black boxes, encapsulated experiences. Consumers don't want to pick a model, or know what model they're using; they just want to "talk to AI", and for the system to know which model is best to answer any given question. I would bet that for these companies, if their frontend observes you using the little model override button, that gets instrumented as an "oops" event in their metrics — something they aim to minimize. What you're looking for, are the landing pages of the B2B API products underlying these B2C experiences. That would be https://www.anthropic.com/claude https://www.anthropic.com/claude, https://openai.com/api/ https://openai.com/api/, etc. (In general, search "[AI company] API".) From those B2B landing pages, you can usually click through to pages with details about each of their models. Here's the model page corresponding to this news announcement, for example: https://www.anthropic.com/claude/opus https://www.anthropic.com/claude/opus (Also, note how these B2B pages are on the AI companies' own corporate domains; whereas their B2C products have their own dedicated domains. From their perspective, their B2C offerings are essentially treated as separate companies that happen to consume their APIs — a "reference use-case" — rather than as a part of what the B2B company sells.)

margalabargala 1y ago

If anything, Anthropic has the product lineup that makes the most sense. Higher numbers mean better model. Haiku < Sonnet < Opus which translates to length/size. Free < Pro < Max. Contrast to something like OpenAI. They've got gpt4.1, 4o, and o4. Which of these are newer than one another? How do people remember which of o4 and 4o are which?

hvb2 1y ago

Not sure is this is sarcasm I'm assuming not. You're comparing well understood products that are wildly different to products with code names. Even someone who has never wore a t-shirt will see it on a mannequin and know where it goes. I'm sorry but I cannot tell what the difference is between sonnet and opus. Unless one is for music... So in this case you read the docs. Which is, in your analogy, you going to the Nike store and reading up on if a tshirt goes on your upper or lower body.

AlecSchueler 1y ago
Surely anyone interested in taking out a Claude subscription knows broadly what they're going to use an LLM for. It's more like going to the Nike store and asking about the difference between the Vaporfly 3 and the Pegasus 41. I know they're all shoes and therefore go on my feet, but I don't know what the difference is unless one is better for riding horses?

potatolicious 1y ago

Eh, this seems like a take that reeks a bit of "everyone is stupid except me". I do know the answer to OP's question but that's because I pickle my brain in this stuff. It is legitimately confusing. The analogy to different SKUs strikes me also inaccurate. This isn't the difference between shoes, shirts, and shorts - it's more as if a company sells three t-shirts but you can't really tell what's different about them. It's Claude, Claude, and Claude. Which ones code for you? Well, actually, all of them (Code, web/desktop Claude, and the API can all do this) Which ones do you ask about daily sundry queries? Well, two of them (web/desktop Claude, but also the API, but not Code). Well, except if your sundry query is about a programming topic, in which case Code can also do that! Ok, if I do want to use this to write code, which one should I use? Honestly, any of them, and the company does a poor job of explaining why you would use each option. "Which of these very similar-seeming t-shirts should I get?" "You knob. How are posts like this even being posted." is just an extremely poor way to approach other people, IMO.

ryandrake 1y ago
> It's Claude, Claude, and Claude. Which ones code for you? Thanks for articulating the confusion better than I could! I feel it's a similar branding problem as other tech companies have: I'm watching Apple TV+ on my Apple TV software running on my Apple TV connected to my Google TV that isn't actually manufactured by Google. But that Google TV also has an Apple TV app that can play Apple TV+.
- potatolicious 1y ago
  It's a bit worse than a branding problem honestly, since there's legitimate overlap between products, because ultimately they're different expressions of the same underlying LLMs. I'm not sure if you ever got a good rundown, but the tl;dr is that the 3 products ("Desktop", Code, and API) all expose the same underlying models, but are given different prompts, tools, and context management techniques that make them behave fairly differently and affect how you interact with them. - The API is the bare model itself. It has some coding ability because that's inherent to the model - you can ask it to generate code and copy and paste it for example. You normally wouldn't use this except that if you're using some Copilot-type IDE integration where the IDE is doing the work of talking to the model for you and integrating it into your developer experience. In that case you provide API key and the IDE does the heavy lifting. - The desktop app is actually a half-decent coder. It's capable of producing specific artifacts, distinguishing between multiple "files" it's writing for you, and revisiting previously-written code. "Oh, actually rewrite this in Go." is for example a thing it can totally do. I find it useful for diagnosing issues interactively. - "Claude Code" is a CLI-only wrapper around the model. Think of it like Anthropic's first-party IDE integration, except there's not an IDE, just the CLI. In this case the integration gives the tool broad powers to actually navigate your filesystem, read specific files, write to specific files, run shell commands like builds and tests, etc. These are all functions that an IDE integration would also give you, but this is done in a Claude-y way. My personal take is: try Claude Code, since as long as you're halfway comfortable with a CLI it's pretty usable. If you really want a direct IDE integration you can go with the IDE+API key route, though keep in mind that you might end up paying more (Claude Code is all-you-can-eat-with-rate-limits, where API keys will... just keep going).

tomrod 1y ago

> Why is this the top comment on so many threads about tech products? Because you overestimate the difference that the representative person understands. A more accurate analogy is that Nike sells green-blue shoes and Nike sells blue-green shoes, but the blue-green shoes add 3 feet to your jump and green-blue shoes add 20 mph to your 100 yard dash sprint. You know you need one of them for tomorrow's hurdles race but have no idea which is meaningful for your need.

ryandrake 1y ago
Also, the green-blue shoes charge per-step, but the blue-green shoes are billed monthly by signing up for BlueGreenPro+ or BlueGreenMax+, each with a hidden step limit but BlueGreenMax+ is the one that gives you access to the Cyan step model which is better; plus the green-blue shoes are only useful when sprinting, but the blue-green shoes can be used in many different events, but only through the Nike blue-green API that only some track&field venues have adopted...

true_religion 1y ago

This is like being told to buy Nike shoes. Then when you proudly display your new cleats, they tell you "no, I meant you should by basketball shoes. The cleats are terrible."

squeaky-clean 1y ago

Which Nike shoe is best for basketball? The Nike Dunk, Air Force 1, Air Jordan, LeBron 20, LeBron XXI Prime 93, Kobe IX elite, Giannis Freak 7, GT Cut, GT Cut 3, GT Cut 3 Turbo, GT Hustle 3, or the KD18? At least with those you can buy whatever you think is coolest. Which Claude model and interface should the average programmer use?

AlecSchueler 1y ago
What's the average programmer? Is it someone who likes CLI tools? Or who likes IDE integration? Different strokes for different folks and surely the average programmer understands what environment they will be most comfortable in.
- nawgz 1y ago
  > Different strokes for different folks and surely the average programmer understands what environment they will be most comfortable in. That's a silly claim to me, we're talking about a completely new environment where you prompt an AI to develop code, and therefore an "average programmer" is unlikely to have any meaningful experience or intuition with this flow. That is exactly what GP is talking about - where does he plug in the AI? What tradeoffs are there to different options? The other day I had someone judge me for asking this question by dismissively saying "dont say youve still been using ChatGPT and copy/paste", which made me laugh - I don't use AI at all, so who was he looking down on?
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    To me that's the silly argument. How many different tools have you ever used? New build system? New linter? How did you know if you wanted to run those on the command line or in your IDE? And it seems the story you shared sort of proves the point: the web interface worked fine for you and you didn't need to question it until someone was needlessly rude about it.
    - nawgz 1y ago

kelnos 1y ago

Because the offerings are not simple. Your Nike example is silly; everyone knows what to do with shoes and shorts and shirts, and why they might want (or not want) to buy those particular items from Nike. But for someone who hasn't been immersed in the "LLM scene", it's hard to understand why you might want to use one particular model of another. It's hard to understand why you might want to do per-request API pricing vs. a bucketed usage plan. This is a new technology, and the landscape is changing weekly. I think maybe it might be nice if folks around here were a bit more charitable and empathetic about this stuff. There's no reason to get all gatekeep-y about this kind of knowledge, and complaining about these questions just sounds condescending and doesn't do anyone any good.

pdntspa 1y ago

Because few seem to want to expend the effort to dive in and understand something. Instead they want the details spoonfed to them by marketing or something. I absolutely loathe this timeline we're stuck in.