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I tried to open source a weekend personal project while at $BIGCO via their "Invention Assignment Review Committee". It turned into a minor bureaucratic nightm

I tried to open source a weekend personal project while at $BIGCO via their "Invention Assignment Review Committee". It turned into a minor bureaucratic nightmare and I was ultimately never given the OK to release it, or any clarity over whether my employer was choosing to assert an IP ownership interest in it. In retrospect, I wish I had never notified them of its existence, and released it under a pseudonym instead.

bitbasher 1y ago
Whenever I join a company I always create a bunch of made up names on my “prior inventions” list. When I open source something I just name it after something I put on my list if the description is close enough.
- toss1 1y ago
  ^^^^ Excellent idea and thinking ahead. Great suggestion to make in advance placeholders to contain side projects.
- neilv 1y ago
  Do you think your colleagues have the same ideas of what is honest and trustworthy behavior? In what ways do you trust, and not trust, your colleagues? How do you feel about that?
  - crazygringo 1y ago
    What do colleagues have to do with anything? The better question is in what ways do you trust, and not trust, the company you work for? And the answer to that can be very complicated, and depend on the company a great deal. It also depends on who might buy the company in the future, and they might not be trustworthy at all.
    - neilv 1y ago
      The scenario is someone in a work environment, lying and defrauding in signed documents. Where does the workplace dishonesty start and end? Does the person think that their colleagues have the same rules, or different rules? How does that affect their work environment? (Incidentally, I'm sick of HN downvoting legitimate comments.)
      - crazygringo 1y ago
        Ok, but corporations also lie to and defraud their employees all the time. In ways large and small. Nobody is entirely honest to everyone about everything in their workplace. You really think everyone is actually sick on every single sick day, or that every single doctor's appointment on their calendar is a real doctor's appointment? People never make excuses to their manager that are lies? Managers never lie to their employees about a justification or a deadline or a promise or a policy? Workplace dishonesty is everywhere. Because workplaces are made of human beings. It's just something you learn to manage in a realistic way. People are mostly honest, but they're never entirely honest.
        scubbo 1y ago
        > You really think everyone is actually sick on every single sick day, or that every single doctor's appointment on their calendar is a real doctor's appointment? ...I.....used to. Huh.
        crazygringo 1y ago
        Hint: a non-trivial proportion of those doctor's appointments are actually interviews at competing firms. There aren't usually a whole lot of other legitimate-sounding reasons for why you'll be out of the office for a 3- or 4-hour chunk...
        scubbo 1y ago
        Increasingly realizing that I'm not cynical enough :'(
        1y ago
  - nemomarx 1y ago
    The people approving this stuff are your bosses, not your colleagues.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 1y ago
    I trust them to mind their own business and I do the same for them.
- tharne 1y ago
  That is insanely clever. Love it.
ryandrake 1y ago
Whenever I see someone on HN talking about their moonlighting or side/hobby project, I get chills and think to myself "Boy, I hope they don't work for $BIGCO, because in all likelihood their existing employer claims IP ownership over that work, and if they ever try to do anything substantial with it, they're going to have corporate lawyers on their case." I've had experience with a similar "committee" (probably same company) and I concluded the safest path is to just not do side projects while employed with BigTech.
- lrvick 1y ago
  Or live in California where forced assignment of personal time IP is illegal.
  - ryandrake 1y ago
    With an exception that is important if you work at $BIGCO: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44803482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44803482
- BrandoElFollito 1y ago
  This is insane. When I am out of work in France, I am out of work. Sure, I cannot write software that competes with my company but unrelated open source that does not being me income - yes.
  - ihattendorf 1y ago
    > I cannot write software that competes with my company That can be difficult when you work for a company that has it's fingers in almost everything.
- socalgal2 1y ago
  Some companies are far more open than others. Google has tons of open source projects both through Google and via personal projects. Apple on the otherhand mostly forbids personal projects period, or so I've been told.
lrvick 1y ago
In California you can just open source it and do not need permission as long as you did it on personal time on personal hardware without referencing proprietary IP. Sure, a company could not like you doing that and find a reason to fire you, but they have no valid legal recourse and you may even be able to sue them for wrongful termination. We are one of the only states that prevents employers from having ownership of your brain on personal time. Corpos have tried to claim ownership of things I did in my personal time, multiple times. I just show them this law and they back down immediately. Having rights to my own brain is a big reason I live in California, cost of living be damned. https://california.public.law/codes/labor_code_section_2870 https://california.public.law/codes/labor_code_section_2870 IANAL, but know your rights!
- ryandrake 1y ago
  There are two exceptions listed on 2870, the first one is going to be the gotcha. It excludes inventions that: > (1)Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer’s business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer; So, if you work at $BIGCO, they will argue that since they have their fingers in everything, that anything you might work on "relates" to their business or actual or demonstrably anticipated R&D. This is a truck-sized loophole.
  - lrvick 1y ago
    Ah, fair. More great reasons to never work for a megacorpo. There is not a paycheck big enough to make me give up the freedom to do whatever I want with my personal engineering time. I have only worked for employers that do just one thing, so this law offers me lots of protection.
- kstrauser 1y ago
  Note that this is also an enormous part of the reason why CA is a world tech hub. I hear other US states claiming they want to build a similar reputation. “So, you’ll pass laws giving employees ownership of their own personal projects they make on their own time?” “LOL, no!” “Alright, good luck Tupelo.”
mik3y 1y ago
Ugh, you gave me bad flashbacks of the same committee. I tried to re-license a previously-released project (like from GPL to MIT or similar) and they wouldn't budge. I had written all the code. In the end, I decided that them suing (or firing) me to assert their ownership of $VALUELESS_PROJECT, so they could then license it back, was ridiculously unlikely, said fuck it, and did it. And I was right.
- em-bee 1y ago
  the problem isn't your risk, the problem is the risk of the users of the project. if the code is owned by the company, your re-licensing isn't legal, and that could put other companies using it at risk.
  - mik3y 1y ago
    Right, but, they never owned it, and would never attempt to assert that. So in hindsight (and similar to GP) compliance was a worse and more frustrating option than simply never mentioning things.

bitbasher 1y ago

Whenever I join a company I always create a bunch of made up names on my “prior inventions” list. When I open source something I just name it after something I put on my list if the description is close enough.

toss1 1y ago
^^^^ Excellent idea and thinking ahead. Great suggestion to make in advance placeholders to contain side projects.
neilv 1y ago
Do you think your colleagues have the same ideas of what is honest and trustworthy behavior? In what ways do you trust, and not trust, your colleagues? How do you feel about that?
- crazygringo 1y ago
  What do colleagues have to do with anything? The better question is in what ways do you trust, and not trust, the company you work for? And the answer to that can be very complicated, and depend on the company a great deal. It also depends on who might buy the company in the future, and they might not be trustworthy at all.
  - neilv 1y ago
    The scenario is someone in a work environment, lying and defrauding in signed documents. Where does the workplace dishonesty start and end? Does the person think that their colleagues have the same rules, or different rules? How does that affect their work environment? (Incidentally, I'm sick of HN downvoting legitimate comments.)
    - crazygringo 1y ago
      Ok, but corporations also lie to and defraud their employees all the time. In ways large and small. Nobody is entirely honest to everyone about everything in their workplace. You really think everyone is actually sick on every single sick day, or that every single doctor's appointment on their calendar is a real doctor's appointment? People never make excuses to their manager that are lies? Managers never lie to their employees about a justification or a deadline or a promise or a policy? Workplace dishonesty is everywhere. Because workplaces are made of human beings. It's just something you learn to manage in a realistic way. People are mostly honest, but they're never entirely honest.
      - scubbo 1y ago
        > You really think everyone is actually sick on every single sick day, or that every single doctor's appointment on their calendar is a real doctor's appointment? ...I.....used to. Huh.
        crazygringo 1y ago
        Hint: a non-trivial proportion of those doctor's appointments are actually interviews at competing firms. There aren't usually a whole lot of other legitimate-sounding reasons for why you'll be out of the office for a 3- or 4-hour chunk...
        scubbo 1y ago
        Increasingly realizing that I'm not cynical enough :'(
      - 1y ago
- nemomarx 1y ago
  The people approving this stuff are your bosses, not your colleagues.
- HeyLaughingBoy 1y ago
  I trust them to mind their own business and I do the same for them.
tharne 1y ago
That is insanely clever. Love it.

ryandrake 1y ago

Whenever I see someone on HN talking about their moonlighting or side/hobby project, I get chills and think to myself "Boy, I hope they don't work for $BIGCO, because in all likelihood their existing employer claims IP ownership over that work, and if they ever try to do anything substantial with it, they're going to have corporate lawyers on their case." I've had experience with a similar "committee" (probably same company) and I concluded the safest path is to just not do side projects while employed with BigTech.

lrvick 1y ago
Or live in California where forced assignment of personal time IP is illegal.
- ryandrake 1y ago
  With an exception that is important if you work at $BIGCO: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44803482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44803482
BrandoElFollito 1y ago
This is insane. When I am out of work in France, I am out of work. Sure, I cannot write software that competes with my company but unrelated open source that does not being me income - yes.
- ihattendorf 1y ago
  > I cannot write software that competes with my company That can be difficult when you work for a company that has it's fingers in almost everything.
socalgal2 1y ago
Some companies are far more open than others. Google has tons of open source projects both through Google and via personal projects. Apple on the otherhand mostly forbids personal projects period, or so I've been told.

lrvick 1y ago

In California you can just open source it and do not need permission as long as you did it on personal time on personal hardware without referencing proprietary IP. Sure, a company could not like you doing that and find a reason to fire you, but they have no valid legal recourse and you may even be able to sue them for wrongful termination. We are one of the only states that prevents employers from having ownership of your brain on personal time. Corpos have tried to claim ownership of things I did in my personal time, multiple times. I just show them this law and they back down immediately. Having rights to my own brain is a big reason I live in California, cost of living be damned. https://california.public.law/codes/labor_code_section_2870 https://california.public.law/codes/labor_code_section_2870 IANAL, but know your rights!

ryandrake 1y ago
There are two exceptions listed on 2870, the first one is going to be the gotcha. It excludes inventions that: > (1)Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer’s business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer; So, if you work at $BIGCO, they will argue that since they have their fingers in everything, that anything you might work on "relates" to their business or actual or demonstrably anticipated R&D. This is a truck-sized loophole.
- lrvick 1y ago
  Ah, fair. More great reasons to never work for a megacorpo. There is not a paycheck big enough to make me give up the freedom to do whatever I want with my personal engineering time. I have only worked for employers that do just one thing, so this law offers me lots of protection.
kstrauser 1y ago
Note that this is also an enormous part of the reason why CA is a world tech hub. I hear other US states claiming they want to build a similar reputation. “So, you’ll pass laws giving employees ownership of their own personal projects they make on their own time?” “LOL, no!” “Alright, good luck Tupelo.”

mik3y 1y ago

Ugh, you gave me bad flashbacks of the same committee. I tried to re-license a previously-released project (like from GPL to MIT or similar) and they wouldn't budge. I had written all the code. In the end, I decided that them suing (or firing) me to assert their ownership of $VALUELESS_PROJECT, so they could then license it back, was ridiculously unlikely, said fuck it, and did it. And I was right.

em-bee 1y ago
the problem isn't your risk, the problem is the risk of the users of the project. if the code is owned by the company, your re-licensing isn't legal, and that could put other companies using it at risk.
- mik3y 1y ago
  Right, but, they never owned it, and would never attempt to assert that. So in hindsight (and similar to GP) compliance was a worse and more frustrating option than simply never mentioning things.