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It didn't implode on next dive, it was much worse. On dive 80 during surfacing people heard a "loud bang" from the submersible (according to a witness it sound

by Ralfp 1y ago

It didn't implode on next dive, it was much worse. On dive 80 during surfacing people heard a "loud bang" from the submersible (according to a witness it sounded like a gunfire). They looked at their "RTMS" system and found recording of loud noise from the hull. But only three days later they did the dive 81 (with customers). After this dive their tension sensors shown that their carbon hull no longer compresses under pressure like it used to. They then made plan to inspect the hull after dive 83. But instead they left Titan winter on the parking lot in Saint Johns where it was not protected from any exposure because that was cheaper. During summer they hauled it for a dive 88 (I don't know why they jumped from 81 to 88, prolly cancelled dives because of the weather?). During hauling it become loose and started knocking against the hauling platform (LARS) because of the waves. Day later they did a dive where it imploded. On side note, they had no way to access and inspect the carbon hull without having to completely dissemble vehicle, and that too was considered too pricy to do. This was a disaster of organization with messianic CEO dismissing all concerns with bravado and legal treats that got what was coming to them. If you want to, here's transcript of him scolding and then laying out one of engineers because they took safety concerns outside of the company: https://media.defense.gov/2024/Sep/20/2003550726/-1/-1/0/CG-100%20INTERVIEW%20TRANSCRIPT%20-%20DIR%20OF%20MARINE%20OPERATIONS%20WITH%20CEO_REDACTED_REDACTED.PDF https://media.defense.gov/2024/Sep/20/2003550726/-1/-1/0/CG-...

lesuorac 1y ago
> But instead they left Titan winter on the parking lot in Saint Johns where it was not protected from any exposure because that was cheaper. This came up in the hearings. It's standard practice to do this but it's probably different leaving say the metallic Antipodes [1] outside than carbon fiber. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipodes_(submersible) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipodes_(submersible)
- jcranmer 1y ago
  The report here more or less outright says that leaving it outside was a major factor in the incident. The incident on dive 80 was adjudged to be partial delamination of the carbon fiber layers, and leaving it outside subjected it to freeze-thaw cycles that propagated the delamination into near-total delamination, which promptly failed the next time the hull was pressurized. Although there is also the aborted dive 87, which subjected to the submersible to a lot of percussive damage via wave action.
  - hinkley 1y ago
    One wonders if any of these people have ever heard the term, "Don't poke the bear." Reading this is like watching someone gamble their life savings away because they know the next round/hand is gonna be the one where they win it all back.
throw9394944 1y ago
> This was a disaster of organization with messianic CEO dismissing all concerns with bravado While I love this list, I do not like that you are blaming everything on CEO. This company followed current ethical policies, and used them to exclude actual experts and skilled people. CEO operated in environment that supports this behaviour, and only cares about irelevant metrics!
- avgDev 1y ago
  Not surprised this is posted by a throwaway account. I would think this is Rush himself, if he was alive of course.
  - tokai 1y ago
    Start-up idea: LLM service that will post online to defend you after you die.
    - mobilemidget 1y ago
      Or nice idea for a new black mirror episode.
      - throwawayoldie 1y ago
        In the Year Of Our Lord 2025, there is no difference between the two.
    - red-iron-pine 1y ago
      various estates (e.g. Tolken, etc) already have trusts that can and do hire lawyers and even marketing firms. in this case you'd just hire a marketing org that uses AI a lot and hope that the trust has enough money to keep them doing their job for a while
  - throw9394944 1y ago
    Maybe listen to some of his interviews. His opinion about "old" experts is on record. And old Oceangate HR pages are still in archives. But again, this is not juzt about CEO (he deserves the blame), but why he was able to operate for so long, and why his critics vere silenced!
dogleash 1y ago
"Not at all, because carbon fiber is better compression then tension. And that's what nobody understands. It's completely opposite of what everyone else says. Everyone's, oh, carbon fiber can't handle compression. They're full of shit, and I've proven they're full of shit." - Man crushed by custom carbon fiber submersible
- A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
  The funny thing is that it's trivially untrue of carbon fiber, which has a compressive strength ~40% of its tensile strength.
  - jjk166 1y ago
    Being weaker in compression than in tension is not the same as being unable to handle compression. 40% of carbon fiber's tensile strength is still comparable to the compressive strength of high strength steel.
    - echoangle 1y ago
      > Not at all, because carbon fiber is better compression then tension. That's still false though.
    - A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
      So there's a NASA/Lockheed report on this. > https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19810045017 https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19810045017 As 95% of the carbon fiber market is T300, and as T300 hasn't changed in the years since, I think it holds up. Long story short, raw carbon fiber has a high compressive strength, but it's still just ~40% of its tensile strength. Carbon fiber composite single-plies or tapes have a reduced, but still reasonably high, compressive strength. When you get to multi-ply 0/90° or 0/45/90° composite laminates, "allowable" A-Basis (<1% likelihood of failure) compressive strength is very low -- around 400MPa -- well under the compressive strength of good steel. And that's under ideal conditions. You've got to apply knock-downs for ply angle, moisture, through-thickness shear, impact damage, and manufacturing defects. ...Hence the Titan sub failed at a compressive load of something like 200MPa. I'm not accusing you of this, but one of the issues with carbon fiber is that people see on a specsheet that it has, e.g., a "tensile strength = 4000MPa" and they assume that composite parts will exhibit a practical tensile strength of 4000MPa. The properties of CFRP -- CF composites with epoxy or PEEK or whatever -- are always way reduced, and sometimes quite difficult to pin down. That said, the tensile strength of CF is always high, as a rule of thumb. Its compressive strength really isn't.
joshstrange 1y ago
> They then made plan to inspect the hull after dive 83. But instead they left Titan winter on the parking lot in Saint Johns where it was not protected from any exposure because that was cheaper. The things I'm working on have a much lower (zero?) chance of death but this is a tale as old as time. _Looks longingly into the backlog..._
js2 1y ago
This transcript is of CEO Stockton Rush interviewing redacted "Director of Marine Operations"? Do I have that right? Why is there a transcript of the CEO interviewing one of his own employees, apparently in front of the NTSB, from 2018? Edit: the transcript is between Stockton Rush and his former director of marine operations, David Lochridge, plus three other staff. [...] Lochridge: "That meeting turned out to be a two-hour, 10-minute discussion… on my termination and how my disagreements with the organisation, with regards to safety, didn't matter." [...] The 2018 meeting was recorded. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7819kx4498o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7819kx4498o
- shortrounddev2 1y ago
  I believe it was a recorded phone call
iJohnDoe 1y ago
Some real gems here and learned some things I wasn't aware of. > "Now, if it fails, then you have to stop, and it's -- again, this is not something that just happens all of a sudden. It doesn't just implode. It screams like a mother before it implodes." > On dive 80 during surfacing people heard a "loud bang" from the submersible (according to a witness it sounded like a gunfire) Well, there you go. > But instead they left Titan <during the> winter on the parking lot in Saint Johns where it was not protected from any exposure because that was cheaper. > During hauling it become loose and started knocking against the hauling platform (LARS) because of the waves. Day later they did a dive where it imploded. Early on, it was made clear that carbon fiber hulls could not easily be inspected for integrity issues like metal hulls can be. I'm not an expert, but I'm guessing sensitive instruments have been around for a while for the purpose of inspection. Having a hull you cannot easily inspect would/should make most people/companies nervous.
Noumenon72 1y ago
Has anyone written up a narrative of this, presented that transcript in context, and so forth? If not, thank you for presenting it.

by Ralfp 1y ago

lesuorac 1y ago

> But instead they left Titan winter on the parking lot in Saint Johns where it was not protected from any exposure because that was cheaper. This came up in the hearings. It's standard practice to do this but it's probably different leaving say the metallic Antipodes [1] outside than carbon fiber. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipodes_(submersible) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipodes_(submersible)

jcranmer 1y ago
The report here more or less outright says that leaving it outside was a major factor in the incident. The incident on dive 80 was adjudged to be partial delamination of the carbon fiber layers, and leaving it outside subjected it to freeze-thaw cycles that propagated the delamination into near-total delamination, which promptly failed the next time the hull was pressurized. Although there is also the aborted dive 87, which subjected to the submersible to a lot of percussive damage via wave action.
- hinkley 1y ago
  One wonders if any of these people have ever heard the term, "Don't poke the bear." Reading this is like watching someone gamble their life savings away because they know the next round/hand is gonna be the one where they win it all back.

throw9394944 1y ago

> This was a disaster of organization with messianic CEO dismissing all concerns with bravado While I love this list, I do not like that you are blaming everything on CEO. This company followed current ethical policies, and used them to exclude actual experts and skilled people. CEO operated in environment that supports this behaviour, and only cares about irelevant metrics!

avgDev 1y ago
Not surprised this is posted by a throwaway account. I would think this is Rush himself, if he was alive of course.
- tokai 1y ago
  Start-up idea: LLM service that will post online to defend you after you die.
  - mobilemidget 1y ago
    Or nice idea for a new black mirror episode.
    - throwawayoldie 1y ago
      In the Year Of Our Lord 2025, there is no difference between the two.
  - red-iron-pine 1y ago
    various estates (e.g. Tolken, etc) already have trusts that can and do hire lawyers and even marketing firms. in this case you'd just hire a marketing org that uses AI a lot and hope that the trust has enough money to keep them doing their job for a while
- throw9394944 1y ago
  Maybe listen to some of his interviews. His opinion about "old" experts is on record. And old Oceangate HR pages are still in archives. But again, this is not juzt about CEO (he deserves the blame), but why he was able to operate for so long, and why his critics vere silenced!

dogleash 1y ago

"Not at all, because carbon fiber is better compression then tension. And that's what nobody understands. It's completely opposite of what everyone else says. Everyone's, oh, carbon fiber can't handle compression. They're full of shit, and I've proven they're full of shit." - Man crushed by custom carbon fiber submersible

A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
The funny thing is that it's trivially untrue of carbon fiber, which has a compressive strength ~40% of its tensile strength.
- jjk166 1y ago
  Being weaker in compression than in tension is not the same as being unable to handle compression. 40% of carbon fiber's tensile strength is still comparable to the compressive strength of high strength steel.
  - echoangle 1y ago
    > Not at all, because carbon fiber is better compression then tension. That's still false though.
  - A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
    So there's a NASA/Lockheed report on this. > https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19810045017 https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/19810045017 As 95% of the carbon fiber market is T300, and as T300 hasn't changed in the years since, I think it holds up. Long story short, raw carbon fiber has a high compressive strength, but it's still just ~40% of its tensile strength. Carbon fiber composite single-plies or tapes have a reduced, but still reasonably high, compressive strength. When you get to multi-ply 0/90° or 0/45/90° composite laminates, "allowable" A-Basis (<1% likelihood of failure) compressive strength is very low -- around 400MPa -- well under the compressive strength of good steel. And that's under ideal conditions. You've got to apply knock-downs for ply angle, moisture, through-thickness shear, impact damage, and manufacturing defects. ...Hence the Titan sub failed at a compressive load of something like 200MPa. I'm not accusing you of this, but one of the issues with carbon fiber is that people see on a specsheet that it has, e.g., a "tensile strength = 4000MPa" and they assume that composite parts will exhibit a practical tensile strength of 4000MPa. The properties of CFRP -- CF composites with epoxy or PEEK or whatever -- are always way reduced, and sometimes quite difficult to pin down. That said, the tensile strength of CF is always high, as a rule of thumb. Its compressive strength really isn't.

joshstrange 1y ago

> They then made plan to inspect the hull after dive 83. But instead they left Titan winter on the parking lot in Saint Johns where it was not protected from any exposure because that was cheaper. The things I'm working on have a much lower (zero?) chance of death but this is a tale as old as time. _Looks longingly into the backlog..._

js2 1y ago

This transcript is of CEO Stockton Rush interviewing redacted "Director of Marine Operations"? Do I have that right? Why is there a transcript of the CEO interviewing one of his own employees, apparently in front of the NTSB, from 2018? Edit: the transcript is between Stockton Rush and his former director of marine operations, David Lochridge, plus three other staff. [...] Lochridge: "That meeting turned out to be a two-hour, 10-minute discussion… on my termination and how my disagreements with the organisation, with regards to safety, didn't matter." [...] The 2018 meeting was recorded. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7819kx4498o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7819kx4498o

shortrounddev2 1y ago
I believe it was a recorded phone call

iJohnDoe 1y ago

Some real gems here and learned some things I wasn't aware of. > "Now, if it fails, then you have to stop, and it's -- again, this is not something that just happens all of a sudden. It doesn't just implode. It screams like a mother before it implodes." > On dive 80 during surfacing people heard a "loud bang" from the submersible (according to a witness it sounded like a gunfire) Well, there you go. > But instead they left Titan <during the> winter on the parking lot in Saint Johns where it was not protected from any exposure because that was cheaper. > During hauling it become loose and started knocking against the hauling platform (LARS) because of the waves. Day later they did a dive where it imploded. Early on, it was made clear that carbon fiber hulls could not easily be inspected for integrity issues like metal hulls can be. I'm not an expert, but I'm guessing sensitive instruments have been around for a while for the purpose of inspection. Having a hull you cannot easily inspect would/should make most people/companies nervous.

Noumenon72 1y ago

Has anyone written up a narrative of this, presented that transcript in context, and so forth? If not, thank you for presenting it.