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The first red flag there is "2x their output". You can find many an anecdote where a good engineer produced better solution in fewer lines of code (or sometimes

The first red flag there is "2x their output". You can find many an anecdote where a good engineer produced better solution in fewer lines of code (or sometimes, by removing code — the holy grail). So always aim for outcomes, not output :) At my company, we did promote people quickly enough that they are now close to double their salaries when they started a year or so ago, due to their added value as engineers in the team. It gets tougher as they get into senior roles, but even there, there's quite a bit of room for differentiation. Additionally, since this is a market, you should not even expect to be paid twice for 2x value provided — then it makes no difference to a company if they get two 1x engineers instead, and you are really not that special if you are double the cost. So really, the "fair" value is somewhere in between: 1.5x to equally reward both parties, or leaning one way or the other :)

bongodongobob 1y ago
No one said anything about lines of code. I would assume output here means features completed, tickets knocked out, tasks completed etc.
- necovek 1y ago
  Even so, tickets munched out or tasks completed is still "output" — sometimes you could provide more value by avoiding tickets that are not bringing benefits to customers or business, solving things customers need and not what they think they need, suggesting solutions which are 5% of work yet provide 90% of the value, etc.
  - bongodongobob 1y ago
    My job is to do what's asked of me. Do the stories, knock out the tickets. It helps me do that faster. That's a crazy far goalpost move from you.
    - necovek 1y ago
      I never worked as an engineer like that: I always wanted to influence what I am being asked to do (I started with free software communities, moved to an open source company, and only worked "proprietary" work the last decade), and especially, challenging it when I was confident it made no sense, or when there were obvious improvements for the end user experience at lower, equal, or slightly bigger cost. You can certainly be very productive by doing what you are told. I'd probably fail at that metric against many engineers, yet people usually found me very valuable to their teams (I never asked if it was 1x or 2x or 0.5x compared to whatever they perceive as average). The last few years, I am focused on empowering engineers to be equal partners in deciding what is being done, by teaching them to look for and suggest options which are 10% of the effort and 90% of the value for the user (or 20/80, and sometimes even 1% effort for 300% the value). Because they can best see what is simple and easy to do with the codebase, so if they put customer hat on, they unlock huge wins for their team and business.
AdrianB1 1y ago
When I go to buy 2 bottles of milk I am never offered to get it for 1.x the price of one bottle. I don't see any way it is fair to deliver double and get just 1.5x, in a hypothetical scenario just for the sake of the discussion. The suggestion to work 50% of the time and relax, socialize and network the other 50% is way more reasonable, when possible (not in my case).
- nemomarx 1y ago
  this is pedantry but isn't that literally what BOGO or similar coupons do? so you're probably offered it a lot
- necovek 1y ago
  I am always being bombarded with different "buy more for less" options in any store I enter. All of those "3rd item free", "second item 50% off"... The thing is that company is hunting for better value, and you are looking for a better deal. If company can get 2x engineers' production at lower cost, you are only more valuable than having 2 engineers producing as much if you are cheaper. Your added value is this extra 1x production, but if you are selling "that" at the same price, they are just as well off by hiring two engineers instead of you: there is no benefit to having you over them. If you can do it cheaper, then you are more valuable the cheaper you are. Which is why I said 1.5x cost is splitting the value/cost between you and the employer.

bongodongobob 1y ago

No one said anything about lines of code. I would assume output here means features completed, tickets knocked out, tasks completed etc.

necovek 1y ago
Even so, tickets munched out or tasks completed is still "output" — sometimes you could provide more value by avoiding tickets that are not bringing benefits to customers or business, solving things customers need and not what they think they need, suggesting solutions which are 5% of work yet provide 90% of the value, etc.
- bongodongobob 1y ago
  My job is to do what's asked of me. Do the stories, knock out the tickets. It helps me do that faster. That's a crazy far goalpost move from you.
  - necovek 1y ago
    I never worked as an engineer like that: I always wanted to influence what I am being asked to do (I started with free software communities, moved to an open source company, and only worked "proprietary" work the last decade), and especially, challenging it when I was confident it made no sense, or when there were obvious improvements for the end user experience at lower, equal, or slightly bigger cost. You can certainly be very productive by doing what you are told. I'd probably fail at that metric against many engineers, yet people usually found me very valuable to their teams (I never asked if it was 1x or 2x or 0.5x compared to whatever they perceive as average). The last few years, I am focused on empowering engineers to be equal partners in deciding what is being done, by teaching them to look for and suggest options which are 10% of the effort and 90% of the value for the user (or 20/80, and sometimes even 1% effort for 300% the value). Because they can best see what is simple and easy to do with the codebase, so if they put customer hat on, they unlock huge wins for their team and business.

AdrianB1 1y ago

When I go to buy 2 bottles of milk I am never offered to get it for 1.x the price of one bottle. I don't see any way it is fair to deliver double and get just 1.5x, in a hypothetical scenario just for the sake of the discussion. The suggestion to work 50% of the time and relax, socialize and network the other 50% is way more reasonable, when possible (not in my case).

nemomarx 1y ago
this is pedantry but isn't that literally what BOGO or similar coupons do? so you're probably offered it a lot
necovek 1y ago
I am always being bombarded with different "buy more for less" options in any store I enter. All of those "3rd item free", "second item 50% off"... The thing is that company is hunting for better value, and you are looking for a better deal. If company can get 2x engineers' production at lower cost, you are only more valuable than having 2 engineers producing as much if you are cheaper. Your added value is this extra 1x production, but if you are selling "that" at the same price, they are just as well off by hiring two engineers instead of you: there is no benefit to having you over them. If you can do it cheaper, then you are more valuable the cheaper you are. Which is why I said 1.5x cost is splitting the value/cost between you and the employer.