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As I suspected, the problem seems to be Stripe and Paypal as this information comes out. I kinda feel bad for the call centers and the legion of Reddit/Twitter

As I suspected, the problem seems to be Stripe and Paypal as this information comes out. I kinda feel bad for the call centers and the legion of Reddit/Twitter users who were mislead by a few random meme protest .gif files. But I already learned my lesson back during the Reddit Boston Marathon bullshit: the crowds are stupid. Don't trust the hype, don't trust Reddit Posts that cite other Reddit posts that cite a tweet. Wait for real info. That being said: Visa and MasterCard have been dicks in the past and somewhat deserve attention. I'm just a bit sad that this particular case is turning out to be more of a Stripe/Paypal issue instead as it means a lot of energy has been misdirected. ------- I've still got my Discover card so that if the real call for action ever comes, I'm ready to move off Visa/Mastercard. But people need to seriously fact check their work before hyping an internet brigade next time.

msgodel 1y ago
It seems weird to use stripe/paypal at that scale rather than having direct merchant accounts with the card issuers. Why would they do it that way?
smcg 1y ago
The campaigns have been consistent about labeling Stripe as a problem.
- dragontamer 1y ago
  Well I'm sure the legion of underpaid Visa/Mastercard help desk operators feel cool about that. /s Did Stripe even HAVE a call center for the internet mob to protest at?
  - TimorousBestie 1y ago
    They made it very difficult to reach a human being, but yes, they do have a call center.
    - dragontamer 1y ago
      I've been following this protest for a bit out of curiosity (because I really do think Visa/Mastercard is problematic). But almost all the Reddit posts or Tweets I've seen are about Visa call centers or Mastercard call centers. The number of people protesting Stripe is miniscule in comparison (if there even is anyone to begin with).
TimorousBestie 1y ago
> as it means a lot of energy has been misdirected. Mastercard was involved* in the censorship of Steam games, according to Steam’s statement quoted here: https://www.thegamer.com/steam-adult-game-ban-valve-says-mastercard-pressured-removal/ https://www.thegamer.com/steam-adult-game-ban-valve-says-mas... So whence “energy has been misdirected”? *: Yes, we can quibble about who was “actually responsible”, were the various intermediaries overzealous, etc., but it’s enough to note that in the counterfactual where Mastercard doesn’t have a rule 5.12.7, there is no censorship of Steam in this manner.
- jfyi 1y ago
  Or... the payment processor lied. I guess we'll find out really quick if itch finds another processor.
  - dragontamer 1y ago
    I mean, I can buy porn right now with my MasterCard. Do I need to start posting links as proof? We all know that the issue is with the categorization of the transaction. MasterCard/Visa has higher chargebacks and thus higher costs associated with porn. When Stripe focuses on non-porn they can get much cheaper pricing. When Itch.io buys cheaper fees from Itch.io, they get smacked due to some porn being on the payment network. So now itch.io is realizing the 'price' of Porn and we will see if itch.io decides if it's worth the cost. Especially because CCBill or whatever is going to be a % higher on all transactions (including non-porn), it's likely that it's only efficient if itch.io makes a 2nd website for ONLY pornographic games or something. ------- It's.... really messy and muddy. But messy / muddy situations don't make good little memes or call to action on Reddit/Twitter. ---------- I am still pretty sure that Visa/Mastercard are problematic. But if this is going to be a sustained push, people need to be much much smarter about the information and also need to direct their energy efficiently. You can't just call up the internet mob like the boy who cried wolf. I think the message needs to be about the power and control of Visa/Mastercard and payment processors to cut off free speech in general. Porn could be a good starting point for free speech discussion and seems to come up as a practical example often. But we still need to get the details correct otherwise we risk making fools of ourselves.
Goronmon 1y ago
As I suspected, the problem seems to be Stripe and Paypal as this information comes out. I'm not convinced that VISA and Mastercard are totally hands off about content and that Stripe and Paypal are going against their wishes to enforce content restrictions completely on their own. https://old.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/1mf7uei/steam_update_valve_responded_to_mastercards_claim/steam_update_valve_responded_to_mastercards_claim/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/1mf7uei/steam_update...
- dragontamer 1y ago
  And did you read that? Mastercard never talked to Steam directly. That means all the discussion about Mastercard (from Steams point of view) is practically hearsay. Meanwhile, we have itch.io being VERY clear here that it's Stripe that has a no-porn policy. That gives us a DIRECT cause. And Stripe ALSO admits that they don't allow porn on their payment network. -------- Has Steam even said who their payment processor is yet?
  - seabass-labrax 1y ago
    > Has Steam even said who their payment processor is yet? Steam definitely support PayPal in some areas, but their consumer terms and conditions don't disclose whether they use an intermediary for handling card payments.
ziml77 1y ago
The worst were the people saying to harass Itch despite Itch also being the victims. I even saw some of them, when corrected about where the actual problems stem from, just say that "companies are not your friend" line and get super mad at the people pointing them away from attacking Itch.
- jfyi 1y ago
  "When the shit hits the fan it doesn't distribute equally". The payment processing system is so complex and opaque even people in the industry rarely understand anything outside their little corner of it. People are going to be angry at the most visible parts of the ecosystem. Itch is clearly making the effort and I suspect they will come through with a new processor ultimately. They surely have enough business that processors that handle adult industry will most certainly negotiate beyond their typical rates. Especially considering the nature of the bulk of their business isn't directly adult oriented.
  - tb_technical 1y ago
    Payment processing being opaque, heavy handed, and restrictive all started with the patriot act, and until it's gone payment processors can't be the dispassionate processors of transactions people expect. It's very strange that porn is the thing rallying people to dismantle this nonsense.
seabass-labrax 1y ago
I fully agree with you with regard to Reddit misinformation. However, to the extent that a boycott on Mastercard and VISA would be successful, I believe it would have almost the same effect on Stripe and PayPal. If it's PayPal and Stripe that are actually responsible for this deeply unpopular policy, but Mastercard and VISA that are getting all the bad publicity, then Mastercard and VISA are not going to keep dealing with PayPal and Stripe! These kinds of intermediaries can be very convenient for both the merchant and the consumer, but they are not essential for most users. Indeed most of the hurdles in the way of merchants accepting payment by card directly are artificially created by VISA and Mastercard themselves, so it's within their control to loosen the rules and sideline PayPal and Stripe.
Aurornis 1y ago
> But I already learned my lesson back during the Reddit Boston Marathon bullshit: the crowds are stupid. Don't trust the hype, don't trust Reddit Posts that cite other Reddit posts that cite a tweet. Wait for real info. Reddit is a hotbed of misinformation, especially when tensions run high. I have been surprised by how frequently tech people develop a blind spot for Reddit’s low quality. I think it’s because Reddit feels like the internet from 10 years ago, especially if you use old.reddit.com . It’s basically TikTok for text and thumbnails, though.
- dragontamer 1y ago
  It's because us old dogs have grown up where Wisdom of the Crowds was actually a hype concept and we still (mistakenly) believe in it. It's hard for us to learn new tricks. The hope is in the next generation to figure this out...
phendrenad2 1y ago
> I kinda feel bad for the call centers and the legion of Reddit/Twitter users who were mislead by a few random meme protest .gif files If you think it was just a few image memes, you really haven't been paying attention. Check out my post history here for better information than you currently have on how credit card companies are definitely contributing to this problem, if not a critical link in the chain that causes this problem. Personally, I believe that the problem is upstream of credit card companies even. The problem is with activist investors with far too much influence, able to bully the CEOs of Visa/MasterCard/etc. to accomplish political outcomes.
YurgenJurgensen 1y ago
Then why the weak sauce denial from Mastercard? They could have denied much more than they did, and had every incentive to do so, but chose not to rule out allowing anyone acting on their behalf enforcing rules that they wrote, and chose not to deny taking any action in response to social media campaigns they were certainly aware of and were explicitly named in. They offered no explanation as to why they had rules on their books that, according to their statement, they have no business enforcing. If the crux of the issue is that everyone has arranged a system where nobody has to take responsibility for anything, none of what you’ve said absolves Mastercard (or Visa) of any guilt.
- dragontamer 1y ago
  > Then why the weak sauce denial from Mastercard? https://www.mastercard.com/us/en/news-and-trends/press/2025/august/clarifying-recent-headlines-on-gaming-content.html https://www.mastercard.com/us/en/news-and-trends/press/2025/... > Mastercard has not evaluated any game or required restrictions of any activity on game creator sites and platforms, contrary to media reports and allegations. This seems like a rather strong refutation of the discussion. +----------- > If the crux of the issue is that everyone has arranged a system where nobody has to take responsibility for anything, none of what you’ve said absolves Mastercard (or Visa) of any guilt. Stripe has literally been saying no porn on their network since the freaking start of this controversy with Itch.io.
  - YurgenJurgensen 1y ago
    It’s really not. They’re saying they didn’t do it themselves, but aren’t ruling out it being done by proxy, which is exactly what Valve are saying happened. Actually, it’s a triple weasel, since they also didn’t evaluate any games, they went off unverified 3rd party reports, and aren’t targeting ‘game creator’ sites, but game distribution sites. It could be a potential quadruple weasel, since they could have not ‘required’ any restrictions, but presented such onerous alternatives that it was a de-facto requirement that still fell short of the strictest definition of the word. And yet there is still porn on Steam, so clearly this is more than just Stripe.

msgodel 1y ago

It seems weird to use stripe/paypal at that scale rather than having direct merchant accounts with the card issuers. Why would they do it that way?

smcg 1y ago

The campaigns have been consistent about labeling Stripe as a problem.

dragontamer 1y ago
Well I'm sure the legion of underpaid Visa/Mastercard help desk operators feel cool about that. /s Did Stripe even HAVE a call center for the internet mob to protest at?
- TimorousBestie 1y ago
  They made it very difficult to reach a human being, but yes, they do have a call center.
  - dragontamer 1y ago
    I've been following this protest for a bit out of curiosity (because I really do think Visa/Mastercard is problematic). But almost all the Reddit posts or Tweets I've seen are about Visa call centers or Mastercard call centers. The number of people protesting Stripe is miniscule in comparison (if there even is anyone to begin with).

TimorousBestie 1y ago

> as it means a lot of energy has been misdirected. Mastercard was involved* in the censorship of Steam games, according to Steam’s statement quoted here: https://www.thegamer.com/steam-adult-game-ban-valve-says-mastercard-pressured-removal/ https://www.thegamer.com/steam-adult-game-ban-valve-says-mas... So whence “energy has been misdirected”? *: Yes, we can quibble about who was “actually responsible”, were the various intermediaries overzealous, etc., but it’s enough to note that in the counterfactual where Mastercard doesn’t have a rule 5.12.7, there is no censorship of Steam in this manner.

jfyi 1y ago
Or... the payment processor lied. I guess we'll find out really quick if itch finds another processor.
- dragontamer 1y ago
  I mean, I can buy porn right now with my MasterCard. Do I need to start posting links as proof? We all know that the issue is with the categorization of the transaction. MasterCard/Visa has higher chargebacks and thus higher costs associated with porn. When Stripe focuses on non-porn they can get much cheaper pricing. When Itch.io buys cheaper fees from Itch.io, they get smacked due to some porn being on the payment network. So now itch.io is realizing the 'price' of Porn and we will see if itch.io decides if it's worth the cost. Especially because CCBill or whatever is going to be a % higher on all transactions (including non-porn), it's likely that it's only efficient if itch.io makes a 2nd website for ONLY pornographic games or something. ------- It's.... really messy and muddy. But messy / muddy situations don't make good little memes or call to action on Reddit/Twitter. ---------- I am still pretty sure that Visa/Mastercard are problematic. But if this is going to be a sustained push, people need to be much much smarter about the information and also need to direct their energy efficiently. You can't just call up the internet mob like the boy who cried wolf. I think the message needs to be about the power and control of Visa/Mastercard and payment processors to cut off free speech in general. Porn could be a good starting point for free speech discussion and seems to come up as a practical example often. But we still need to get the details correct otherwise we risk making fools of ourselves.

Goronmon 1y ago

As I suspected, the problem seems to be Stripe and Paypal as this information comes out. I'm not convinced that VISA and Mastercard are totally hands off about content and that Stripe and Paypal are going against their wishes to enforce content restrictions completely on their own. https://old.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/1mf7uei/steam_update_valve_responded_to_mastercards_claim/steam_update_valve_responded_to_mastercards_claim/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/1mf7uei/steam_update...

dragontamer 1y ago
And did you read that? Mastercard never talked to Steam directly. That means all the discussion about Mastercard (from Steams point of view) is practically hearsay. Meanwhile, we have itch.io being VERY clear here that it's Stripe that has a no-porn policy. That gives us a DIRECT cause. And Stripe ALSO admits that they don't allow porn on their payment network. -------- Has Steam even said who their payment processor is yet?
- seabass-labrax 1y ago
  > Has Steam even said who their payment processor is yet? Steam definitely support PayPal in some areas, but their consumer terms and conditions don't disclose whether they use an intermediary for handling card payments.

ziml77 1y ago

The worst were the people saying to harass Itch despite Itch also being the victims. I even saw some of them, when corrected about where the actual problems stem from, just say that "companies are not your friend" line and get super mad at the people pointing them away from attacking Itch.

jfyi 1y ago
"When the shit hits the fan it doesn't distribute equally". The payment processing system is so complex and opaque even people in the industry rarely understand anything outside their little corner of it. People are going to be angry at the most visible parts of the ecosystem. Itch is clearly making the effort and I suspect they will come through with a new processor ultimately. They surely have enough business that processors that handle adult industry will most certainly negotiate beyond their typical rates. Especially considering the nature of the bulk of their business isn't directly adult oriented.
- tb_technical 1y ago
  Payment processing being opaque, heavy handed, and restrictive all started with the patriot act, and until it's gone payment processors can't be the dispassionate processors of transactions people expect. It's very strange that porn is the thing rallying people to dismantle this nonsense.

seabass-labrax 1y ago

I fully agree with you with regard to Reddit misinformation. However, to the extent that a boycott on Mastercard and VISA would be successful, I believe it would have almost the same effect on Stripe and PayPal. If it's PayPal and Stripe that are actually responsible for this deeply unpopular policy, but Mastercard and VISA that are getting all the bad publicity, then Mastercard and VISA are not going to keep dealing with PayPal and Stripe! These kinds of intermediaries can be very convenient for both the merchant and the consumer, but they are not essential for most users. Indeed most of the hurdles in the way of merchants accepting payment by card directly are artificially created by VISA and Mastercard themselves, so it's within their control to loosen the rules and sideline PayPal and Stripe.

Aurornis 1y ago

> But I already learned my lesson back during the Reddit Boston Marathon bullshit: the crowds are stupid. Don't trust the hype, don't trust Reddit Posts that cite other Reddit posts that cite a tweet. Wait for real info. Reddit is a hotbed of misinformation, especially when tensions run high. I have been surprised by how frequently tech people develop a blind spot for Reddit’s low quality. I think it’s because Reddit feels like the internet from 10 years ago, especially if you use old.reddit.com . It’s basically TikTok for text and thumbnails, though.

dragontamer 1y ago
It's because us old dogs have grown up where Wisdom of the Crowds was actually a hype concept and we still (mistakenly) believe in it. It's hard for us to learn new tricks. The hope is in the next generation to figure this out...

phendrenad2 1y ago

> I kinda feel bad for the call centers and the legion of Reddit/Twitter users who were mislead by a few random meme protest .gif files If you think it was just a few image memes, you really haven't been paying attention. Check out my post history here for better information than you currently have on how credit card companies are definitely contributing to this problem, if not a critical link in the chain that causes this problem. Personally, I believe that the problem is upstream of credit card companies even. The problem is with activist investors with far too much influence, able to bully the CEOs of Visa/MasterCard/etc. to accomplish political outcomes.

YurgenJurgensen 1y ago

Then why the weak sauce denial from Mastercard? They could have denied much more than they did, and had every incentive to do so, but chose not to rule out allowing anyone acting on their behalf enforcing rules that they wrote, and chose not to deny taking any action in response to social media campaigns they were certainly aware of and were explicitly named in. They offered no explanation as to why they had rules on their books that, according to their statement, they have no business enforcing. If the crux of the issue is that everyone has arranged a system where nobody has to take responsibility for anything, none of what you’ve said absolves Mastercard (or Visa) of any guilt.

dragontamer 1y ago
> Then why the weak sauce denial from Mastercard? https://www.mastercard.com/us/en/news-and-trends/press/2025/august/clarifying-recent-headlines-on-gaming-content.html https://www.mastercard.com/us/en/news-and-trends/press/2025/... > Mastercard has not evaluated any game or required restrictions of any activity on game creator sites and platforms, contrary to media reports and allegations. This seems like a rather strong refutation of the discussion. +----------- > If the crux of the issue is that everyone has arranged a system where nobody has to take responsibility for anything, none of what you’ve said absolves Mastercard (or Visa) of any guilt. Stripe has literally been saying no porn on their network since the freaking start of this controversy with Itch.io.
- YurgenJurgensen 1y ago
  It’s really not. They’re saying they didn’t do it themselves, but aren’t ruling out it being done by proxy, which is exactly what Valve are saying happened. Actually, it’s a triple weasel, since they also didn’t evaluate any games, they went off unverified 3rd party reports, and aren’t targeting ‘game creator’ sites, but game distribution sites. It could be a potential quadruple weasel, since they could have not ‘required’ any restrictions, but presented such onerous alternatives that it was a de-facto requirement that still fell short of the strictest definition of the word. And yet there is still porn on Steam, so clearly this is more than just Stripe.