4 ms·

Why do people say "so little". How is an appointment to a high prestige job for life small stakes?

aaronbaugher 1y ago
It's a slam on how petty many of the internal grudge matches are. But of course they don't seem at all petty to those engaged in them.
NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
At the state university in my smaller city, an actual professorship (not some adjunct) earns up towards $200k/year salary. Maybe pretty modest by FAANG standards, but for many people outside of tech that sounds like a lottery jackpot. So it's not just prestige, though that's on offer too.
- pohl 1y ago
  Especially once you factor in the lower cost of living (relative to FAANG jobs) in that smaller city.
- hyperbovine 1y ago
  Don't forget 3-4 months off in the summer too.
  - Fomite 1y ago
    Professors don't get the summer off. If you have a heavy teaching load, summers are your one window to get research work done. If you don't, like me, the difference between the summer and the rest of the year is its easier to find parking.
    - hyperbovine 1y ago
      Fine, 3-4 months to think about interesting things all day long with basically zero expectation that you’ll be anywhere or show up to anything. Call it what you will.
      - Fomite 1y ago
        That you think this is true betrays a complete lack of understanding about what a modern academic job requires.
        aydyn 1y ago
        I mean, its not completely untrue. You do not have set hours. You can offload as much work as you want to grad students and postdocs, depending on how despotic you want to be.
        Fomite 1y ago
        I do not have set hours, but I do have obligations. When a program officer wants to talk to you, and it's 6 AM because you're on the west coast, you say yes. "You can offload as much work as you want to grad students and postdocs" is just untrue - there's always more work than there are people to do it, and I'm pretty sure a number of committees I'm on would be more than a little annoyed if I sent a postdoc. Is it a job that has some nice properties to it? Yes. But the idea that we have summers "off", or that it's all time to contemplate blue sky research ideas, rather than go to curriculum meetings and work on monthly grant reports is a fantasy.
        aydyn 1y ago
        > When a program officer wants to talk to you, and it's 6 AM because you're on the west coast, you say yes. Why? What happens if you as a tenured PI say no? > "You can offload as much work as you want to grad students and postdocs" is just untrue - there's always more work than there are people to do it, and I'm pretty sure a number of committees I'm on would be more than a little annoyed if I sent a postdoc. No this part is definitely true and I have firsthand experience of it. Your graduate students are paid less than minimum wage and are often immigrants from poorer countries. Often they are even paid zero by the PI. So they can be effectively serfs and beholden to you for literal survival. Use your imagination. What's to stop you from recruiting a bunch of students and offloading all your grant writing to them, hunger games style? Look, I know there are idealistic professors who put in the work. If that's you, thank you. But the system incentivizes what is effectively feudalism and the professors who take advantage of that climb faster than you and become program chairs. Acknowledgement of this perverse system is not an attack on you.
davidgay 1y ago
The quote is referring to fights between people who already have tenure.
coderatlarge 1y ago
in many countries the salaries are unbelievably low by US standards, but they generally do come with healthcare, benefits and a pension.
mountainb 1y ago
There's a more transparent and straightforward pathway to a lifetime appointment as a federal judge (which actually pays OK and has many social perks) than there is to a tenured professorship in most fields. Judges have Solomon-like-life-and-death power, and the lawyers who argue before them (often successful, high-status people in their own right) are professionally obligated to suck up. By comparison almost all professorships are like becoming the most important hobo on a given street corner.
- throw-qqqqq 1y ago
  This is a really sharp take IMO. In all fairness though, it's very difficult to become a judge. At least in my country, you have to have been both a defense lawyer and a prosecutor in order to become a judge. It takes many years of experience that is not easily gained.
- wisty 1y ago
  Yeah, it's mostly either students or academia who admire their hobo kings. It's kind of like a sport like tennis. If you're in the system, you think that the world number 150 tennis player is amazing, but they barely make enough to afford travel to the matches.

It's a slam on how petty many of the internal grudge matches are. But of course they don't seem at all petty to those engaged in them.

NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago

At the state university in my smaller city, an actual professorship (not some adjunct) earns up towards $200k/year salary. Maybe pretty modest by FAANG standards, but for many people outside of tech that sounds like a lottery jackpot. So it's not just prestige, though that's on offer too.

pohl 1y ago
Especially once you factor in the lower cost of living (relative to FAANG jobs) in that smaller city.
hyperbovine 1y ago
Don't forget 3-4 months off in the summer too.
- Fomite 1y ago
  Professors don't get the summer off. If you have a heavy teaching load, summers are your one window to get research work done. If you don't, like me, the difference between the summer and the rest of the year is its easier to find parking.
  - hyperbovine 1y ago
    Fine, 3-4 months to think about interesting things all day long with basically zero expectation that you’ll be anywhere or show up to anything. Call it what you will.
    - Fomite 1y ago
      That you think this is true betrays a complete lack of understanding about what a modern academic job requires.
      - aydyn 1y ago
        I mean, its not completely untrue. You do not have set hours. You can offload as much work as you want to grad students and postdocs, depending on how despotic you want to be.
        Fomite 1y ago
        I do not have set hours, but I do have obligations. When a program officer wants to talk to you, and it's 6 AM because you're on the west coast, you say yes. "You can offload as much work as you want to grad students and postdocs" is just untrue - there's always more work than there are people to do it, and I'm pretty sure a number of committees I'm on would be more than a little annoyed if I sent a postdoc. Is it a job that has some nice properties to it? Yes. But the idea that we have summers "off", or that it's all time to contemplate blue sky research ideas, rather than go to curriculum meetings and work on monthly grant reports is a fantasy.
        aydyn 1y ago
        > When a program officer wants to talk to you, and it's 6 AM because you're on the west coast, you say yes. Why? What happens if you as a tenured PI say no? > "You can offload as much work as you want to grad students and postdocs" is just untrue - there's always more work than there are people to do it, and I'm pretty sure a number of committees I'm on would be more than a little annoyed if I sent a postdoc. No this part is definitely true and I have firsthand experience of it. Your graduate students are paid less than minimum wage and are often immigrants from poorer countries. Often they are even paid zero by the PI. So they can be effectively serfs and beholden to you for literal survival. Use your imagination. What's to stop you from recruiting a bunch of students and offloading all your grant writing to them, hunger games style? Look, I know there are idealistic professors who put in the work. If that's you, thank you. But the system incentivizes what is effectively feudalism and the professors who take advantage of that climb faster than you and become program chairs. Acknowledgement of this perverse system is not an attack on you.

davidgay 1y ago

The quote is referring to fights between people who already have tenure.

coderatlarge 1y ago

in many countries the salaries are unbelievably low by US standards, but they generally do come with healthcare, benefits and a pension.

mountainb 1y ago

There's a more transparent and straightforward pathway to a lifetime appointment as a federal judge (which actually pays OK and has many social perks) than there is to a tenured professorship in most fields. Judges have Solomon-like-life-and-death power, and the lawyers who argue before them (often successful, high-status people in their own right) are professionally obligated to suck up. By comparison almost all professorships are like becoming the most important hobo on a given street corner.

throw-qqqqq 1y ago
This is a really sharp take IMO. In all fairness though, it's very difficult to become a judge. At least in my country, you have to have been both a defense lawyer and a prosecutor in order to become a judge. It takes many years of experience that is not easily gained.
wisty 1y ago
Yeah, it's mostly either students or academia who admire their hobo kings. It's kind of like a sport like tennis. If you're in the system, you think that the world number 150 tennis player is amazing, but they barely make enough to afford travel to the matches.