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There's a section in Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974) where Persig takes this all the way to the final conclusion that there should be no grades
by Nition 1y ago
There's a section in Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance (1974) where Persig takes this all the way to the final conclusion that there should be no grades at University, and no degree at the end, and then and only then will everyone who goes there actually be learning-motivated.
- jrm4 1y agoSo. I teach at a university and I do give an "assignment" exactly like this. In a few of my classes, I have final projects that teams work on. I also have presentations. I used to require them of all students; and quickly learned this is a good way to waste valuable time. Now, all my presentations are completely optional for NO CREDIT. You don't get penalized if you don't do them, and perhaps more importantly, I give ZERO EXTRA CREDIT for doing them. As you can imagine, every single presentation I've gotten from this has been absolutely worth it.
- DANmode 1y agoWhat were the best three?
- jrm4 1y agoHmm, I mean been doing this for years. Some were interesting because they DIDN'T accomplish much and things went bad but then we could kind of post-mortem in the class. Others had some pretty cool things that ended up in real life; I believe the official timers for the Florida Supreme Court testimony things came from one of my classes.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- tsukikage 1y agoWhat proportion of students bother?
- jrm4 1y agoIt seems to go in waves? Rarely is it one or two, I imagine there's some peer pressure thing going on. Something like all or nothing.
- neffy 1y agoI do the same in my classes, and it´s common practice in many courses my dept which may help, as the students know what is expected of them. I don´t think it's wasting time. It motivates the students to know that they have to present in front of their peers, helps the shy ones get practice, and yes the quality varies, but it´s a very good way to share information within the class about different projects, even with a not so good presentation.
- coderatlarge 1y agowhich students fail your class?
- jrm4 1y agoI get very few failures, but that's a selection thing; it's a junior senior "big picture" IT class.
- coderatlarge 1y agounderstood thanks - but in those few cases how do you even determine who fails?
- BrenBarn 1y agoThe problem is that the motivation from above (i.e., administration, state legislatures, employers, etc.) is no longer really about learning. We could have an entirely learning-motivated university right now and it would be considered a bad thing by many powerful people because it's not aimed at "preparing people for the workforce" (in part simply by providing that degree).
- HPsquared 1y agoThe students also want a certificate for their efforts. It's impossible to avoid signalling.
- sevensor 1y ago> It's impossible to avoid signalling You can take that one step further. What kind of signal does “I can afford to go to University and not worry about credentials” send? I’d argue that’s realistic only for people who are willing to admit that they belong to a leisure class. In the US at least, we like to flatter the leisure class with the pretense that they worked hard to get there.
- dizhn 1y agoI learned recently that most universities in Switzerland have open admissions where entry to the program is pretty easy. However they do not hold anybody's hand and you have to pass your classes or can get kicked out quite easily. I am not sure if what I am saying is completely accurate feel like this is one model that would weed out people who are serious from who aren't.
- KineticLensman 1y agoThe Open University in the UK (which has been running for decades) doesn’t have any entry requirements for the first year of its undergrad courses and the early modules definitely include a focus on getting people up to speed on academic writing, use of library tools, etc. I don’t know how many people make it to reach the year 2 modules (which require passing year 1)
- squigz 1y agoI was recommended that book many years ago, when I was far too young to appreciate it. Maybe it's time to give it another go...
- lencastre 1y agouniversity provides in the following order: prestige, connections, knowledge in exchange for money
- brookst 1y agoIf you missed “practice space to learn how to learn and to work with other people”, your understanding is too flawed to forgive the obvious so-edge take.
- backscratches 1y agoI assume that would fall under the listed "knowledge" category.
- brookst 1y agoPerhaps, but to my mind knowledge and skills are qualitatively different.
- bigfishrunning 1y agoI went to a state school, and didn't get much prestige or many connections. I did learn how to be an engineer, and more importantly I learned how to be an adult. I think my time there was worth it. Maybe this is true of liberal arts or business degrees? I don't know, but I don't think this is the opinion of anyone who went to engineering school.
- athenot 1y agoThere are institutions like that. For example, the Collège de France started in 1530, still active, doesn't administer tests nor grants degrees. It's purely about learning. https://www.college-de-france.fr/en https://www.college-de-france.fr/en https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collège_de_France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collège_de_France
- pjc50 1y agoThis is great, but is incompatible with charging people a year's income for it.