4 ms·

man! i wish i knew how to do a better job with that. there's just so much stuff. do you have any ideas?

sixdimensional 1y ago
Give users an AI assistant they can ask to navigate them to the right screen or section of the application? In a previous job, we built our AI assistant so that it could operate our UI in the front-end and it was very powerful.
- barbinbrad 1y ago
  like a cmd+k type deal or something different? we do have cmd+k navigation to everywhere currently + global search, but i worry that less sophisticated users might not use it.
  - sixdimensional 1y ago
    No, I mean, like a copilot style AI assistant, the user can chat with to ask what they want to do, and either the assistant can operate and navigate the UI to the right place, or perhaps even shortcut the steps for the user by asking for questions to satisfy inputs for the thing they are trying to accomplish. An example: - user intent is to update an attribute for a component part number A21445 - user can click a chat bubble icon in lower right and chat to the assistant - user describes their intent - "help me update the description for part number A21445 - system replies by informing the user it will open the right screen, opening a part/component editing UI, with the right part loaded, with the cursor positioned in the description field, and the assistant stays open for further assistance; or; - system replies that it found the part and can update the description, shows the current description for the user, asks "what description do you want?" - user enters updated description - system confirms the change is correct - user confirms the change is correct - part/component description is updated without even opening the UI FWIW, it's great that you have cmd-K and also I've seen those kind of search boxes get more smarts like being able to type "part:A21445" to go directly to a specific UI. I just suggested the above as we learned some interesting user experiences became possible when our AI assistant had the ability to control our UI directly on behalf of a specific user. An example in the app I worked in (a web based data pipeline tool): - "Hey assistant, can you help me add some SQL transformation logic to dataflow ABC, to process the customer data?" - system uses metadata and knowledge of the UI to open the right dataflow, select the right type of UI to open to enable the user to add a SQL query in the right place, maybe even autogenerate the initial SQL query - this all from the main home page of the app, from a side panel chat assistant. - net result feels like talking to the assistant to operate the app, almost no clicks required. I hope that makes sense.
    - barbinbrad 1y ago
      really appreciate you taking the time to write this! we've started trying to work through adding agents like this: https://x.com/barbinbrad/status/1903047303180464586 https://x.com/barbinbrad/status/1903047303180464586 the trouble is that there are 1000s of possible mutations -- and the quality of an agent tends to diminsh with the amount of "tools" you give it. i need to figure out the right abstraction for this.
      - jazzyjackson 1y ago
        I pray you focus on your core product and don’t fall into an agentification rabbit hole. If you do want everything to be automatable take a page from Blender and give every action a key binding plus a Python method, so Python scripts can take the same actions a human would, but as function calls instead of clicks. Then maybe maybe maybe you can have a text field that allows natural language to transform to an action, but please god stay away from chat interfaces. Rhino CAD is another interesting interface to look at, there’s a million buttons and menus but there’s also a text field at the top of the viewport where you can just type a command if you already know the name instead of rummaging through submenus. Kind of a CLI within the GUI.
        sixdimensional 1y ago
        I somewhat agree with you, especially that one could identify a common abstraction that later an LLM could piggyback on top of. Genuine question though - have you implemented an AI assistant/chat interface recently using LLMs on top of a UI? I agree it can be a rabbit hole, but I just got through doing it on an app and there were definitely some things it really made way simpler and some complex scenarios that I'm not sure could have been done any more simply.
        jazzyjackson 1y ago
        I built a chat interface in 2017 (this was with chatscript dialog trees with hole-filling and semantic search) that was ostensibly to prevent our data scientists from redundant work, ie, before they spent all day writing a SQL script, describe the job of the script and see if one already exists. The chatbot would then ask for the parameters required for a script, run the job, and then present a CSV of the returned data. As we collected user feedback and refined the UX, we got closer and closer to an option tree that could be better represented by a drop down menu. It was kind of depressing, but I learned that the actual job of that R & D wasn't to come up with a superintelligent chatbot that replaced data scientists, it was to come up with the infrastructure that would allow data scientists to put their python scripts in a common repository to allow re-use without re-installing locally and screwing around with pyenvs. Anyway, I'm also traumatized by my involvement with a YC startup that actually had a very good (if ENRONish) product around peer to peer energy futures trading that completely fell apart when investors demanded they make it "AI"
  - aitchnyu 1y ago
    Please share the feedback for keyboard shortcuts from real users. Now shops in India tend to use touchscreens or have staff fiddle with laptops with tiny touchpads, but lots of shops use ERPs (Tally) with 90s UI that dont need mouse.
ketedrum 1y ago
if you're gonna keep the left icons-sidebar, its probably a good idea that you label the icons - i think its mentally exhausting for all users to remember what each icon stands for all the time, and also you may want to change the icons themselves in future. i'd also suggest to inline the left sub-menu: so much space under the left sub menu ends up unused. better to inline it at the top of the page, and widen the main content area. anyway congrats on what you've achieved so far; looks great and best of luck!
rubidium 1y ago
I have no idea why you’re using icons for 13 things. Use words.
jdhn 1y ago
So you could try grouping icons into sections, labeling the sections, and then clearly delineating the space between said sections. For example, you could have small text in all bold and all caps as the section title. Another user suggested using text with the icons, which is good for accessibility. Also, looking at the first screenshot in your Github, you could completely merge the left icon only nav with the nav directly to its right. This could result in saving some space. Also, if you really wanted to, you could move back to a more traditional top menu where you have the section title, mousing over the section would open a menu (what is now your icons), and then if needed you could have a submenu underneath (what is your left nav with the words in your first Github photo). Discoverability would potentially take a hit but it's a different way of doing it. If you have any other questions feel free to reach out, I like doing this stuff. Edit: Another user suggested using AI enhanced chat to navigate around. This is a sign that the information architecture is WAY too confusing. AI agents shouldn't be utilized for navigation purposes.

Give users an AI assistant they can ask to navigate them to the right screen or section of the application? In a previous job, we built our AI assistant so that it could operate our UI in the front-end and it was very powerful.

barbinbrad 1y ago
like a cmd+k type deal or something different? we do have cmd+k navigation to everywhere currently + global search, but i worry that less sophisticated users might not use it.
- sixdimensional 1y ago
  No, I mean, like a copilot style AI assistant, the user can chat with to ask what they want to do, and either the assistant can operate and navigate the UI to the right place, or perhaps even shortcut the steps for the user by asking for questions to satisfy inputs for the thing they are trying to accomplish. An example: - user intent is to update an attribute for a component part number A21445 - user can click a chat bubble icon in lower right and chat to the assistant - user describes their intent - "help me update the description for part number A21445 - system replies by informing the user it will open the right screen, opening a part/component editing UI, with the right part loaded, with the cursor positioned in the description field, and the assistant stays open for further assistance; or; - system replies that it found the part and can update the description, shows the current description for the user, asks "what description do you want?" - user enters updated description - system confirms the change is correct - user confirms the change is correct - part/component description is updated without even opening the UI FWIW, it's great that you have cmd-K and also I've seen those kind of search boxes get more smarts like being able to type "part:A21445" to go directly to a specific UI. I just suggested the above as we learned some interesting user experiences became possible when our AI assistant had the ability to control our UI directly on behalf of a specific user. An example in the app I worked in (a web based data pipeline tool): - "Hey assistant, can you help me add some SQL transformation logic to dataflow ABC, to process the customer data?" - system uses metadata and knowledge of the UI to open the right dataflow, select the right type of UI to open to enable the user to add a SQL query in the right place, maybe even autogenerate the initial SQL query - this all from the main home page of the app, from a side panel chat assistant. - net result feels like talking to the assistant to operate the app, almost no clicks required. I hope that makes sense.
  - barbinbrad 1y ago
    really appreciate you taking the time to write this! we've started trying to work through adding agents like this: https://x.com/barbinbrad/status/1903047303180464586 https://x.com/barbinbrad/status/1903047303180464586 the trouble is that there are 1000s of possible mutations -- and the quality of an agent tends to diminsh with the amount of "tools" you give it. i need to figure out the right abstraction for this.
    - jazzyjackson 1y ago
      I pray you focus on your core product and don’t fall into an agentification rabbit hole. If you do want everything to be automatable take a page from Blender and give every action a key binding plus a Python method, so Python scripts can take the same actions a human would, but as function calls instead of clicks. Then maybe maybe maybe you can have a text field that allows natural language to transform to an action, but please god stay away from chat interfaces. Rhino CAD is another interesting interface to look at, there’s a million buttons and menus but there’s also a text field at the top of the viewport where you can just type a command if you already know the name instead of rummaging through submenus. Kind of a CLI within the GUI.
      - sixdimensional 1y ago
        I somewhat agree with you, especially that one could identify a common abstraction that later an LLM could piggyback on top of. Genuine question though - have you implemented an AI assistant/chat interface recently using LLMs on top of a UI? I agree it can be a rabbit hole, but I just got through doing it on an app and there were definitely some things it really made way simpler and some complex scenarios that I'm not sure could have been done any more simply.
        jazzyjackson 1y ago
        I built a chat interface in 2017 (this was with chatscript dialog trees with hole-filling and semantic search) that was ostensibly to prevent our data scientists from redundant work, ie, before they spent all day writing a SQL script, describe the job of the script and see if one already exists. The chatbot would then ask for the parameters required for a script, run the job, and then present a CSV of the returned data. As we collected user feedback and refined the UX, we got closer and closer to an option tree that could be better represented by a drop down menu. It was kind of depressing, but I learned that the actual job of that R & D wasn't to come up with a superintelligent chatbot that replaced data scientists, it was to come up with the infrastructure that would allow data scientists to put their python scripts in a common repository to allow re-use without re-installing locally and screwing around with pyenvs. Anyway, I'm also traumatized by my involvement with a YC startup that actually had a very good (if ENRONish) product around peer to peer energy futures trading that completely fell apart when investors demanded they make it "AI"
- aitchnyu 1y ago
  Please share the feedback for keyboard shortcuts from real users. Now shops in India tend to use touchscreens or have staff fiddle with laptops with tiny touchpads, but lots of shops use ERPs (Tally) with 90s UI that dont need mouse.

ketedrum 1y ago

if you're gonna keep the left icons-sidebar, its probably a good idea that you label the icons - i think its mentally exhausting for all users to remember what each icon stands for all the time, and also you may want to change the icons themselves in future. i'd also suggest to inline the left sub-menu: so much space under the left sub menu ends up unused. better to inline it at the top of the page, and widen the main content area. anyway congrats on what you've achieved so far; looks great and best of luck!

rubidium 1y ago

I have no idea why you’re using icons for 13 things. Use words.

jdhn 1y ago

So you could try grouping icons into sections, labeling the sections, and then clearly delineating the space between said sections. For example, you could have small text in all bold and all caps as the section title. Another user suggested using text with the icons, which is good for accessibility. Also, looking at the first screenshot in your Github, you could completely merge the left icon only nav with the nav directly to its right. This could result in saving some space. Also, if you really wanted to, you could move back to a more traditional top menu where you have the section title, mousing over the section would open a menu (what is now your icons), and then if needed you could have a submenu underneath (what is your left nav with the words in your first Github photo). Discoverability would potentially take a hit but it's a different way of doing it. If you have any other questions feel free to reach out, I like doing this stuff. Edit: Another user suggested using AI enhanced chat to navigate around. This is a sign that the information architecture is WAY too confusing. AI agents shouldn't be utilized for navigation purposes.