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That is a rather laughable actual protection isn’t it? People do stuff because their bosses tell them too.

by lazide 1y ago

crazygringo 1y ago
They generally don't when the boss is safely protected in another country, but you'll go to jail in your own country.
- lazide 1y ago
  They do all the time. See every mining company, ever.
  - littlestymaar 1y ago
    Or every restaurant, or construction company.
skissane 1y ago
I know people (even members of my own family) who have resigned jobs because they felt the personal legal risk to themselves was excessive. In my experience, it is a much more common event at the C-suite level, where that risk is most acute, than at the level of individual contributors. If the company goes bankrupt, the ICs in accounting are unlikely to be personally found liable for the company’s debts - but if the CEO and CFO are proven to be guilty of “trading while insolvent”, they can be.
- lazide 1y ago
  Sure, then they replace them with someone with no such insight/scruples. They quit because the company wasn’t going to change ‘the orders’, yes? Eventually they found someone who would do what they were told without quitting, that is how this works.
  - skissane 1y ago
    Right, and then if the US parent company orders EU managers to violate EU law, and when the managers refuse, replaces them with EU managers stupid enough to obey an illegal order - then what happens? The new EU managers get arrested and possibly end up in prison. Worse case scenario for the US parent, is the US parent company is (civilly or criminally) prosecuted under EU (or member state) law for giving the illegal order, convicted, and then as punishment, they are deprived of their local assets, including ownership of the subsidiary in question. The parent company is ultimately at greater risk than the subsidiary-the parent can be deprived of ownership of its subsidiary, there is no equivalent consequence for the subsidiary.
    - lazide 1y ago
      Assuming it ever gets detected, which certainly isn’t going to be common eh? I’m not really sure the point of your comment, actually. Are you asserting that no one would ever tell someone to do anything illegal because someone else might get in trouble for it? Because if so, you might want to read the news?
    - blibble 1y ago
      > replaces them with EU managers why would they do that? they'd put a US manager there temporarily
      - skissane 1y ago
        That would be illegal. They are offering this service to EU governments (and government contractors) under contractual terms which promise EU management. Replacing the EU management with a US manager would at a minimum be a breach of contract - and since some of these contracts are for sensitive / national security use cases, possibly much more serious legal consequences than just garden variety breach of contract
        blibble 1y ago
        > Replacing the EU management with a US manager would at a minimum be a breach of contract - and since some of these contracts are for sensitive / national security use cases, possibly much more serious legal consequences than just garden variety breach of contract and the EU has no leverage to do anything about it if they did they wouldn't have selected AWS "Sovereign" cloud in the first place
dastbe 1y ago
At this point, you might as well use no cloud provider because at some point someone may be able to be leveraged? Whether that's by your country, another country, or some other nefarious entity.
- lazide 1y ago
  That is where this is clearly going, yes. Which is why AWS is making this move, to try to head it off. For those with nothing they particularly care about, it will be enough. For those with something to lose - currently small, but increasing, see the 80’s and the French Industrial espionage scandal - they’ll move back to on-prem if they haven’t already.

That is a rather laughable actual protection isn’t it? People do stuff because their bosses tell them too.

by lazide 1y ago

That is a rather laughable actual protection isn’t it? People do stuff because their bosses tell them too.

crazygringo 1y ago

They generally don't when the boss is safely protected in another country, but you'll go to jail in your own country.

lazide 1y ago
They do all the time. See every mining company, ever.
- littlestymaar 1y ago
  Or every restaurant, or construction company.

skissane 1y ago

I know people (even members of my own family) who have resigned jobs because they felt the personal legal risk to themselves was excessive. In my experience, it is a much more common event at the C-suite level, where that risk is most acute, than at the level of individual contributors. If the company goes bankrupt, the ICs in accounting are unlikely to be personally found liable for the company’s debts - but if the CEO and CFO are proven to be guilty of “trading while insolvent”, they can be.

lazide 1y ago
Sure, then they replace them with someone with no such insight/scruples. They quit because the company wasn’t going to change ‘the orders’, yes? Eventually they found someone who would do what they were told without quitting, that is how this works.
- skissane 1y ago
  Right, and then if the US parent company orders EU managers to violate EU law, and when the managers refuse, replaces them with EU managers stupid enough to obey an illegal order - then what happens? The new EU managers get arrested and possibly end up in prison. Worse case scenario for the US parent, is the US parent company is (civilly or criminally) prosecuted under EU (or member state) law for giving the illegal order, convicted, and then as punishment, they are deprived of their local assets, including ownership of the subsidiary in question. The parent company is ultimately at greater risk than the subsidiary-the parent can be deprived of ownership of its subsidiary, there is no equivalent consequence for the subsidiary.
  - lazide 1y ago
    Assuming it ever gets detected, which certainly isn’t going to be common eh? I’m not really sure the point of your comment, actually. Are you asserting that no one would ever tell someone to do anything illegal because someone else might get in trouble for it? Because if so, you might want to read the news?
  - blibble 1y ago
    > replaces them with EU managers why would they do that? they'd put a US manager there temporarily
    - skissane 1y ago
      That would be illegal. They are offering this service to EU governments (and government contractors) under contractual terms which promise EU management. Replacing the EU management with a US manager would at a minimum be a breach of contract - and since some of these contracts are for sensitive / national security use cases, possibly much more serious legal consequences than just garden variety breach of contract
      - blibble 1y ago
        > Replacing the EU management with a US manager would at a minimum be a breach of contract - and since some of these contracts are for sensitive / national security use cases, possibly much more serious legal consequences than just garden variety breach of contract and the EU has no leverage to do anything about it if they did they wouldn't have selected AWS "Sovereign" cloud in the first place

dastbe 1y ago

At this point, you might as well use no cloud provider because at some point someone may be able to be leveraged? Whether that's by your country, another country, or some other nefarious entity.

lazide 1y ago
That is where this is clearly going, yes. Which is why AWS is making this move, to try to head it off. For those with nothing they particularly care about, it will be enough. For those with something to lose - currently small, but increasing, see the 80’s and the French Industrial espionage scandal - they’ll move back to on-prem if they haven’t already.