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People who aren’t trespassers or violating any law are punished and deported without a chance to make their case. You’re assuming that all people ICE sends to c

People who aren’t trespassers or violating any law are punished and deported without a chance to make their case. You’re assuming that all people ICE sends to concentration camps deserve to be there? But these determinations have been made without fair hearings where people have a chance to formulate a defense. Due process is not afforded these people. Treating people this way is unjust.

NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
>People who aren’t trespassers They very much are trespassers. They're not citizens, therefor they have no legal right to be here. We issue visas, but we reserve the right to revoke those without notice or for that matter right to appeal. We're removing them from property that is not theirs. Punishment would be additional to that, but perversely would require that they remain here for the punishment, so people like myself have no interest in it. It's enough that they leave. >You’re assuming that all people ICE sends to concentration camps deserve to be there? I don't know what you think the word "deserve" means that it is relevant. It does not matter where they deserve to be, they can't be here. It's our property, they're not welcome. >But these determinations have been made without fair hearings There need be no hearings at all. They are not citizens, they have no right to be here. None. You seem to think that some legal right is being revoked, which would necessitate courts... but they have no such legal right. No need for hearings. >Due process is not afforded these people. The only process due an illegal immigrant is checking to make sure they're not a citizen. If that process has been followed, no more process is due them. They are not criminals, they get no trial. > Treating people this way is unjust. Possibly. But I do not care, not even a little. It is our obligation to make a place for foreigners to live here. This isn't their country.
- grafmax 1y ago
  The issue with suspending due process is you can’t tell if any of these accusations are true. Is this or that victim of ICE really a “trespasser”? Without due process you can’t know that. All you have are accusations and punishment. A place of mass detention without due process: that’s the definition of a concentration camp.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
    >The issue with suspending due process is you can’t tell if any of these accusations are true. None of the detainees are claiming citizenship. Due process is only violated if they claim citizenship and ICE ignores them. One might think that even someone ignorant of the law might start babbling "you can't do this, I'm a citizen" or similar. They know the score. They know they're not. Now if only the left would clue in too. >and punishment. What punishment? Not all legal remedies are punishment. No criminal charges are levied. No one intends to incarcerate them (hell, that would mean they get to stay). They're just being deported.
    - grafmax 1y ago
      > Due process is only violated if they claim citizenship and ICE ignores them. Due process is a human right not a right of citizens. > What punishment? The conditions of these concentration camps are inhumane, which itself is punishment. Besides, as stated by public officials, Alligator Alcatraz is intended as a deterrent. How can it deter if it doesn’t punish? And being deported if you don’t deserve it is punishment. And being deported to foreign concentration camps where you are tortured is punishment as well. And individuals can indeed claim citizenship and get no hearing for their claim. Claims don’t get hearings. That’s because there is no due process. In fact, many people are kidnapped without any formal accusation whatsoever being levied at them - for example Mahmoud Khalil, who had a green card and was retaliated against for protesting genocide, without ever being formally accused of anything. > No one intends to incarcerate them Detention at a concentration camp constitutes incarceration. On average ICE detains people around 50 days domestically (although those are dated numbers). Some are detained indefinitely. At CECOT, prisoners are incarcerated for life. And the US plans to increase the numbers of foreign concentration camps it uses as part of its operations, which don’t even have to be the person’s country of origin.

NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago

>People who aren’t trespassers They very much are trespassers. They're not citizens, therefor they have no legal right to be here. We issue visas, but we reserve the right to revoke those without notice or for that matter right to appeal. We're removing them from property that is not theirs. Punishment would be additional to that, but perversely would require that they remain here for the punishment, so people like myself have no interest in it. It's enough that they leave. >You’re assuming that all people ICE sends to concentration camps deserve to be there? I don't know what you think the word "deserve" means that it is relevant. It does not matter where they deserve to be, they can't be here. It's our property, they're not welcome. >But these determinations have been made without fair hearings There need be no hearings at all. They are not citizens, they have no right to be here. None. You seem to think that some legal right is being revoked, which would necessitate courts... but they have no such legal right. No need for hearings. >Due process is not afforded these people. The only process due an illegal immigrant is checking to make sure they're not a citizen. If that process has been followed, no more process is due them. They are not criminals, they get no trial. > Treating people this way is unjust. Possibly. But I do not care, not even a little. It is our obligation to make a place for foreigners to live here. This isn't their country.

grafmax 1y ago
The issue with suspending due process is you can’t tell if any of these accusations are true. Is this or that victim of ICE really a “trespasser”? Without due process you can’t know that. All you have are accusations and punishment. A place of mass detention without due process: that’s the definition of a concentration camp.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
  >The issue with suspending due process is you can’t tell if any of these accusations are true. None of the detainees are claiming citizenship. Due process is only violated if they claim citizenship and ICE ignores them. One might think that even someone ignorant of the law might start babbling "you can't do this, I'm a citizen" or similar. They know the score. They know they're not. Now if only the left would clue in too. >and punishment. What punishment? Not all legal remedies are punishment. No criminal charges are levied. No one intends to incarcerate them (hell, that would mean they get to stay). They're just being deported.
  - grafmax 1y ago
    > Due process is only violated if they claim citizenship and ICE ignores them. Due process is a human right not a right of citizens. > What punishment? The conditions of these concentration camps are inhumane, which itself is punishment. Besides, as stated by public officials, Alligator Alcatraz is intended as a deterrent. How can it deter if it doesn’t punish? And being deported if you don’t deserve it is punishment. And being deported to foreign concentration camps where you are tortured is punishment as well. And individuals can indeed claim citizenship and get no hearing for their claim. Claims don’t get hearings. That’s because there is no due process. In fact, many people are kidnapped without any formal accusation whatsoever being levied at them - for example Mahmoud Khalil, who had a green card and was retaliated against for protesting genocide, without ever being formally accused of anything. > No one intends to incarcerate them Detention at a concentration camp constitutes incarceration. On average ICE detains people around 50 days domestically (although those are dated numbers). Some are detained indefinitely. At CECOT, prisoners are incarcerated for life. And the US plans to increase the numbers of foreign concentration camps it uses as part of its operations, which don’t even have to be the person’s country of origin.