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At Alligator Alcatraz and CECOT, people are held without charges, denied timely access to legal counsel, and prevented from having a fair hearing to challenge t

At Alligator Alcatraz and CECOT, people are held without charges, denied timely access to legal counsel, and prevented from having a fair hearing to challenge their detention. At CECOT, transfers from the US occur without notice to attorneys or families, in a foreign justice system that has suspended many basic rights. The conditions at these facilities are inhumane and deliberately so. The purpose is to punish people, not detain people awaiting fair trials. Besides the other issues, being punished without trial is a clear violation of constitutional rights.

anonfordays 1y ago
>At Alligator Alcatraz and CECOT CECOT is not in the US. >people are held without charges You do not have to be criminally charged to be deported under civil immigration statues. The years of leftists smugly proclaiming "it's a civil violation, not a crime" ended up being a self own. >denied timely access to legal counsel Again, civil proceedings in the US do not ensure a right to legal counsel. >and prevented from having a fair hearing to challenge their detention They're being temporarily detained for deportation, there's nothing to challenge. The average detention time is short before they're deported to their home country. >At CECOT, transfers from the US occur without notice to attorneys or families, in a foreign justice system that has suspended many basic rights. Not in the US. Deportations to CECOT follow the same practices and statutes as deportations to other countries. >The conditions at these facilities are inhumane and deliberately so. I'll give you this, detention/prisons/etc. centers in the US are universally bad. >The purpose is to punish people, not detain people awaiting fair trials. It's not punishment, it a temporary holding before deportation. > Besides the other issues, being punished without trial is a clear violation of constitutional rights. Illegal immigrants do not have a constitutional right to stay in the US.
- grafmax 1y ago
  CECOT is part of US mass deportation operations. Sending someone to a concentration camp doesn’t become justified when the destination is a foreign country. In fact the US plans to expand the number of domestic and foreign concentration camps. > civil proceedings in the US do not ensure a right to legal counsel. You’re appealing to the law. But due process is violated even if there is a legal framework to justify it. It is a human right not a legal right. The history of concentration camps is full of legal supports placed there by authoritarian governments. But legal justifications don’t exonerate governments mass incarcerating people without due process. > They're being temporarily detained for deportation, there's nothing to challenge. Sure there is. Whether a person should be deported or not is absolutely worth challenging. > The average detention time is short before they're deported to their home country. Average detention times are around 50 days. Some people crossing at borders for example can be turned back fairly quickly. Others are held indefinitely. > It’s not punishment Besides the inhuman conditions that exceed most US prisons, multiple officials have stated that the intent behind Alligator Alcatraz is deterrence.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
    >Sending someone to a concentration camp doesn’t become justified when the destination is a foreign country. If illegal immigrants were to voluntarily deport before becoming detained, could they avoid incarceration at CECOT? If the answer is "yes", then it seems their own actions/decisions cause this. Why then should I have sympathy for them? >But due process is violated even if there is a legal framework to justify it. What is the exact nature of their due process rights in that situation? What process is due, exactly, someone who is detained because they have no right to be in this country? >Whether a person should be deported or not is absolutely worth challenging The only people who have a say in the matter on whether or not a non-citizen should be allowed to stay or forcibly deported is a citizen. If you'd like to make the case that they should be allowed to stay (as a citizen), then I am willing to hear your argument. I'm not willing to hear theirs, and as much as I can influence my government, I will demand that it be unwilling to hear their (non-citizens') arguments as well. In court, or otherwise. >Besides the inhuman conditions that exceed most US prisons, multiple officials have stated that the intent behind Alligator Alcatraz is deterrence. If you remove a trespasser from your property, it is not punishment... it is remedy. If the remedy (for some reason) deters future trespassing, that still doesn't make it punishment.
    - grafmax 1y ago
      People who aren’t trespassers or violating any law are punished and deported without a chance to make their case. You’re assuming that all people ICE sends to concentration camps deserve to be there? But these determinations have been made without fair hearings where people have a chance to formulate a defense. Due process is not afforded these people. Treating people this way is unjust.
      - NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
        >People who aren’t trespassers They very much are trespassers. They're not citizens, therefor they have no legal right to be here. We issue visas, but we reserve the right to revoke those without notice or for that matter right to appeal. We're removing them from property that is not theirs. Punishment would be additional to that, but perversely would require that they remain here for the punishment, so people like myself have no interest in it. It's enough that they leave. >You’re assuming that all people ICE sends to concentration camps deserve to be there? I don't know what you think the word "deserve" means that it is relevant. It does not matter where they deserve to be, they can't be here. It's our property, they're not welcome. >But these determinations have been made without fair hearings There need be no hearings at all. They are not citizens, they have no right to be here. None. You seem to think that some legal right is being revoked, which would necessitate courts... but they have no such legal right. No need for hearings. >Due process is not afforded these people. The only process due an illegal immigrant is checking to make sure they're not a citizen. If that process has been followed, no more process is due them. They are not criminals, they get no trial. > Treating people this way is unjust. Possibly. But I do not care, not even a little. It is our obligation to make a place for foreigners to live here. This isn't their country.

anonfordays 1y ago

>At Alligator Alcatraz and CECOT CECOT is not in the US. >people are held without charges You do not have to be criminally charged to be deported under civil immigration statues. The years of leftists smugly proclaiming "it's a civil violation, not a crime" ended up being a self own. >denied timely access to legal counsel Again, civil proceedings in the US do not ensure a right to legal counsel. >and prevented from having a fair hearing to challenge their detention They're being temporarily detained for deportation, there's nothing to challenge. The average detention time is short before they're deported to their home country. >At CECOT, transfers from the US occur without notice to attorneys or families, in a foreign justice system that has suspended many basic rights. Not in the US. Deportations to CECOT follow the same practices and statutes as deportations to other countries. >The conditions at these facilities are inhumane and deliberately so. I'll give you this, detention/prisons/etc. centers in the US are universally bad. >The purpose is to punish people, not detain people awaiting fair trials. It's not punishment, it a temporary holding before deportation. > Besides the other issues, being punished without trial is a clear violation of constitutional rights. Illegal immigrants do not have a constitutional right to stay in the US.

grafmax 1y ago
CECOT is part of US mass deportation operations. Sending someone to a concentration camp doesn’t become justified when the destination is a foreign country. In fact the US plans to expand the number of domestic and foreign concentration camps. > civil proceedings in the US do not ensure a right to legal counsel. You’re appealing to the law. But due process is violated even if there is a legal framework to justify it. It is a human right not a legal right. The history of concentration camps is full of legal supports placed there by authoritarian governments. But legal justifications don’t exonerate governments mass incarcerating people without due process. > They're being temporarily detained for deportation, there's nothing to challenge. Sure there is. Whether a person should be deported or not is absolutely worth challenging. > The average detention time is short before they're deported to their home country. Average detention times are around 50 days. Some people crossing at borders for example can be turned back fairly quickly. Others are held indefinitely. > It’s not punishment Besides the inhuman conditions that exceed most US prisons, multiple officials have stated that the intent behind Alligator Alcatraz is deterrence.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
  >Sending someone to a concentration camp doesn’t become justified when the destination is a foreign country. If illegal immigrants were to voluntarily deport before becoming detained, could they avoid incarceration at CECOT? If the answer is "yes", then it seems their own actions/decisions cause this. Why then should I have sympathy for them? >But due process is violated even if there is a legal framework to justify it. What is the exact nature of their due process rights in that situation? What process is due, exactly, someone who is detained because they have no right to be in this country? >Whether a person should be deported or not is absolutely worth challenging The only people who have a say in the matter on whether or not a non-citizen should be allowed to stay or forcibly deported is a citizen. If you'd like to make the case that they should be allowed to stay (as a citizen), then I am willing to hear your argument. I'm not willing to hear theirs, and as much as I can influence my government, I will demand that it be unwilling to hear their (non-citizens') arguments as well. In court, or otherwise. >Besides the inhuman conditions that exceed most US prisons, multiple officials have stated that the intent behind Alligator Alcatraz is deterrence. If you remove a trespasser from your property, it is not punishment... it is remedy. If the remedy (for some reason) deters future trespassing, that still doesn't make it punishment.
  - grafmax 1y ago
    People who aren’t trespassers or violating any law are punished and deported without a chance to make their case. You’re assuming that all people ICE sends to concentration camps deserve to be there? But these determinations have been made without fair hearings where people have a chance to formulate a defense. Due process is not afforded these people. Treating people this way is unjust.
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
      >People who aren’t trespassers They very much are trespassers. They're not citizens, therefor they have no legal right to be here. We issue visas, but we reserve the right to revoke those without notice or for that matter right to appeal. We're removing them from property that is not theirs. Punishment would be additional to that, but perversely would require that they remain here for the punishment, so people like myself have no interest in it. It's enough that they leave. >You’re assuming that all people ICE sends to concentration camps deserve to be there? I don't know what you think the word "deserve" means that it is relevant. It does not matter where they deserve to be, they can't be here. It's our property, they're not welcome. >But these determinations have been made without fair hearings There need be no hearings at all. They are not citizens, they have no right to be here. None. You seem to think that some legal right is being revoked, which would necessitate courts... but they have no such legal right. No need for hearings. >Due process is not afforded these people. The only process due an illegal immigrant is checking to make sure they're not a citizen. If that process has been followed, no more process is due them. They are not criminals, they get no trial. > Treating people this way is unjust. Possibly. But I do not care, not even a little. It is our obligation to make a place for foreigners to live here. This isn't their country.