5 ms·

The article mentions two reasonable reasons for allowing the program (which is about gambling on bases outside of US) to continue. 1. The classic, "people will

The article mentions two reasonable reasons for allowing the program (which is about gambling on bases outside of US) to continue. 1. The classic, "people will want to gamble, we may as well control the supply". I think this is generally true. In the US, service members can go off base (when allowed) to gamble in a more or less controlled manner. This program provides the possibility of more or less uniform, controlled access across the globe, regardless of host nation. 2. Revenue funds morale, welfare and recreation activities. I honestly think point 1 is fair enough. The corrosive element is that it's used for aspect 2 (an alternate approach might be to simply to redistribute money back to the soldiers directly... or just let it go to waste). The challenge is that once someone's funding is coupled to gambling revenue, it compromises its ability to pursue task 1 (which is basically a risk mitigation strategy).

JKCalhoun 1y ago
> 1. The classic, "people will want to gamble, we may as well control the supply". Of course, anecdote, but the example they give — sounds like the guy never would have thought to gamble had there not been a slot machine on base. At the same time, he was so easily and thoroughly adsorbed into it, perhaps he was dry kindling — just waiting for any spark to come along.
- icegreentea2 1y ago
  Yes agreed. The challenge with any risk mitigation (harm reduction) strategy like this is that it is super super implementation specific. I'd agree based on the description given in the article that the program as currently run is probably not being particularly successful at risk mitigation. That being said, without real numbers, it's super slippery to argue anything. One could argue that the on base gambling problem introduces (say) 3x the population into gambling. But then perhaps it decreases the of severe financial distress by 10x on an individual basis. That would be a net win. Then one might say that it lowers to risk of off-base unsavory behavior (getting into fights, owing money to local gangs/organized crimes, etc etc) by 1000x on an individualized basis. Perhaps that further tilts the field.
nsonha 1y ago
I wonder how this argument is not applied to prostitution, drugs and other illegal things.
- mytailorisrich 1y ago
  All militaries have always turned a blind eye on those things (if not being completely OK with it, e.g. prostitution) as long as soldiers are in fighting condition when needed and that they don't cause too much trouble with local civilians.
  - mathgeek 1y ago
    There’s a key difference between ignoring a behavior and profiting from it.
    - _mlbt 1y ago
      I think people misunderstand how MWR funds work. The military isn't taking this gambling money to buy bombs and bullets with. The funds that the military themselves provide for MWR are very small. Most MWR facilities and activities are funded by what are called non-appropriated funds (NAFs). NAFs are essentially earned through charging fees for services, such as renting equipment like RVs, bounce houses, and other things. MWR funds are also provided from the profits earned by on post golf courses, post exchanges (basically military Walmart), gas stations, etc. That being said, I do agree that this practice should be ended immediately, as gambling is unhealthy and corrosive to good military order and discipline.
      - mytailorisrich 1y ago
        The US military buys weapons only with drugs money, as we know (Sorry, could not resist).
      - mpyne 1y ago
        As another example, the post exchanges / Navy exchanges on base (which are retail shopping centers) also contribute from their profits to the local MWR funds. They even advertise it to the shoppers. "Hey, the money we make stays with you all, not some random PE investors" But no one is confused that Big Morale is somehow pulling the strings behind the scenes to force people to shop at the exchange. In fact, in general the military can't really "make money", to the extent they manage to run activities involving cash receipts with military personnel, it becomes a chore to figure out something productive to do with that spending. MWR is a very minor activity on most bases but it is something that can absorb money on servicemembers' behalf so it often ends up in this role.
BobbyTables2 1y ago
Ironically the reasoning in #1 also applies well to legalizing things in various communities. (Without a legal source, some people will see out illegal businesses, drive crime, etc.). I don’t see “go to the neighboring state” as a solution if they all ban X… I really don’t know what the solution is. Used to think I was in favor of legalization of some drugs, not because I’m interested in their use but as a tool to take power away from gangs and reduce crime. Later visited a state that did… Actually seeing marijuana stores everywhere was very unsettling. Weird seeing fast food stores converted to them. Saw some high hippies crash their vehicle into their friend’s car door while it was opening. Barely even registered for them… Left a bad taste in my mouth… Bu it does seem reasonable that the fewer service members interacting with dishonest/criminal organizations, the better.
- aaomidi 1y ago
  > Actually seeing marijuana stores everywhere was very unsettling. How is this different from any other store?
bigbacaloa 1y ago
[dead]
amadeuspagel 1y ago
If the only goal is to provide an outlet for gambling, the slot machines could be programmed without a house edge, so that over the long term, the player gains as much money as he loses. But then soldiers might develop a gambling addiction which with those machines is harmless but would become problematic once they return to civilian life and rigged slot machines.

JKCalhoun 1y ago

> 1. The classic, "people will want to gamble, we may as well control the supply". Of course, anecdote, but the example they give — sounds like the guy never would have thought to gamble had there not been a slot machine on base. At the same time, he was so easily and thoroughly adsorbed into it, perhaps he was dry kindling — just waiting for any spark to come along.

icegreentea2 1y ago
Yes agreed. The challenge with any risk mitigation (harm reduction) strategy like this is that it is super super implementation specific. I'd agree based on the description given in the article that the program as currently run is probably not being particularly successful at risk mitigation. That being said, without real numbers, it's super slippery to argue anything. One could argue that the on base gambling problem introduces (say) 3x the population into gambling. But then perhaps it decreases the of severe financial distress by 10x on an individual basis. That would be a net win. Then one might say that it lowers to risk of off-base unsavory behavior (getting into fights, owing money to local gangs/organized crimes, etc etc) by 1000x on an individualized basis. Perhaps that further tilts the field.

nsonha 1y ago

I wonder how this argument is not applied to prostitution, drugs and other illegal things.

mytailorisrich 1y ago
All militaries have always turned a blind eye on those things (if not being completely OK with it, e.g. prostitution) as long as soldiers are in fighting condition when needed and that they don't cause too much trouble with local civilians.
- mathgeek 1y ago
  There’s a key difference between ignoring a behavior and profiting from it.
  - _mlbt 1y ago
    I think people misunderstand how MWR funds work. The military isn't taking this gambling money to buy bombs and bullets with. The funds that the military themselves provide for MWR are very small. Most MWR facilities and activities are funded by what are called non-appropriated funds (NAFs). NAFs are essentially earned through charging fees for services, such as renting equipment like RVs, bounce houses, and other things. MWR funds are also provided from the profits earned by on post golf courses, post exchanges (basically military Walmart), gas stations, etc. That being said, I do agree that this practice should be ended immediately, as gambling is unhealthy and corrosive to good military order and discipline.
    - mytailorisrich 1y ago
      The US military buys weapons only with drugs money, as we know (Sorry, could not resist).
    - mpyne 1y ago
      As another example, the post exchanges / Navy exchanges on base (which are retail shopping centers) also contribute from their profits to the local MWR funds. They even advertise it to the shoppers. "Hey, the money we make stays with you all, not some random PE investors" But no one is confused that Big Morale is somehow pulling the strings behind the scenes to force people to shop at the exchange. In fact, in general the military can't really "make money", to the extent they manage to run activities involving cash receipts with military personnel, it becomes a chore to figure out something productive to do with that spending. MWR is a very minor activity on most bases but it is something that can absorb money on servicemembers' behalf so it often ends up in this role.

BobbyTables2 1y ago

Ironically the reasoning in #1 also applies well to legalizing things in various communities. (Without a legal source, some people will see out illegal businesses, drive crime, etc.). I don’t see “go to the neighboring state” as a solution if they all ban X… I really don’t know what the solution is. Used to think I was in favor of legalization of some drugs, not because I’m interested in their use but as a tool to take power away from gangs and reduce crime. Later visited a state that did… Actually seeing marijuana stores everywhere was very unsettling. Weird seeing fast food stores converted to them. Saw some high hippies crash their vehicle into their friend’s car door while it was opening. Barely even registered for them… Left a bad taste in my mouth… Bu it does seem reasonable that the fewer service members interacting with dishonest/criminal organizations, the better.

aaomidi 1y ago
> Actually seeing marijuana stores everywhere was very unsettling. How is this different from any other store?

bigbacaloa 1y ago

[dead]

amadeuspagel 1y ago

If the only goal is to provide an outlet for gambling, the slot machines could be programmed without a house edge, so that over the long term, the player gains as much money as he loses. But then soldiers might develop a gambling addiction which with those machines is harmless but would become problematic once they return to civilian life and rigged slot machines.