4 ms·

Lots of outrage at the card companies, but strangely, no outrage at the laws that actually caused this. One is the Australian law to remove that type of content

Lots of outrage at the card companies, but strangely, no outrage at the laws that actually caused this. One is the Australian law to remove that type of content and the other is the US law that says the payment processor can't participate in illegal transactions.

Jensson 1y ago
Then they would just get removed in Australia, not worldwide.
- giantg2 1y ago
  My guess is that Steam wasn't able to adequately block the games in Austrailia. If people use a VPN to access the content, could Steam still be liable?
  - ohdeargodno 1y ago
    No, it hasn't been the case. The group in question, Collective Shout, has been pressuring Mastercard. Not Mastercard Australia, not Steam Australia: it's a concerted action to take down things they don't want. It's not a one time thing either: sex workers have been under attack by similar extremist catholic bigots. Furries, porn, anything they see as deviant is being attacked. And MC/Visa are happy to help. Do I mind that MDMA Date With Hitler was taken down ? No, I don't believe it's a massive loss. However, the way it was done, through payment providers threatening to shut off access to the entire payment system because of their rules, is incredibly dangerous to the whole world.
    - Maken 1y ago
      This so much. The problem here is not the content that was blocked, it's the completely unaccountable process that was used to block content worldwide bypassing any legal protection.
      - 0983736882 1y ago
        Content which already violated the policies of MasterCard and Visa. All Collective Shout did was bring it to their attention.
      - giantg2 1y ago
        Steam Direct didn't update their policy on game content from what I see. Doesn't looked like Steam fought back. Seems as though Steam has never supported games with rape, incest, child exploitation, etc.
        Maken 1y ago
        So what? Steam simply didn't want to start a fight with its payment providers over some niche content. The problem is that this incident has proven it's possible to ban whatever content you want, globally, by pressuring middle management in Mastercard and Visa.
        giantg2 1y ago
        "Steam simply didn't want to start a fight with its payment providers over some niche content." Or the content was never supported by Steam, per their policy. You can check Wayback machine for support for my position. Dod you have any evidence of Steam's motive otherwise?
        Maken 1y ago
        I don't think inferring causality here is far fetched. They were fine with the content before. And we know it because said content was banned in some countries (including Australia) to comply with local regulations, so they clearly knew what the games were about. Given that fact we have two options: either they decided to change their approach to content moderation and remove games that previously passed all their checks, with these games being coincidentally the same that were requested by Mastercard; or they decided to remove every game requested by Mastercard regardless of Steam's own policies.
  - nubinetwork 1y ago
    Your steam account has a record of the country it was created in, and so does your credit card when you use it. You'd have to also get a foreign credit card and create a new steam account to even use a VPN to buy games from another region.
  - benterix 1y ago
    No, it's enough that they do basic geoblocking just like streaming and other companies.
  - Mindwipe 1y ago
    Steam already blocks games sufficiently for Australian law in some cases about ratings and drug use, as it does in many territories.
  - meinersbur 1y ago
    They absolutely do have that infrastructure. They implemented every country's content rating system, such as PEGI, ESRB, ... . Games are regionally banned, such as in Germany [1]. Games can also have regionally censored games, typically for violence/gore in Germany [2]. With the strange effect that if you change your account's region, it re-downloads some of the games. The legal situation with VPNs and traveling between regions is the same as with any internet service. [1] https://steamcommunity.com/groups/foruncut/discussions/17/412448792363880797/ https://steamcommunity.com/groups/foruncut/discussions/17/41... [2] https://steamcommunity.com/groups/foruncut/discussions/17/392184522703312743/ https://steamcommunity.com/groups/foruncut/discussions/17/39...
ddtaylor 1y ago
Do you have info on the US law? I am curious if it follows the same trend Russia set years ago with requiring them to put a large deposit and if they break the rules they get to keep all the money.
- giantg2 1y ago
  It doesn't go that far. These are part of the Know Your Customer type of law. These have increasingly been pushed as part of anti money laundering onto banks, investments, and processors. If a company is selling illegal things or things that even could potentially be illegal, then they get blacklisted. Similar thing to pot companies.
  - ascagnel_ 1y ago
    Marijuana sales, at least in the US, are a whole different can of worms, because marijuana exists as kind of a Schroedinger's illicit substance: its legal at a state level in most US states, while simultaneously illegal at the federal level. Anyone with a multi-state footprint that exists in that transaction chain could be held liable.
    - ddtaylor 1y ago
      And they have threatened payment processors, etc. basically anyone who gets to big.
tmvphil 1y ago
As opposed to a hypothetical scenario where it is legal to participate in illegal transactions?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
freddie_mercury 1y ago
Why would there be outrage at laws when the article we're talking about specifically says this isn't about any laws but instead about a Mastercard rule about damaging their brand?
- giantg2 1y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_in_Australia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_i... Also, Steam Direct didn't update their policy on game content from what I see. Doesn't looked like Steam fought back. Seems as though Steam has never supported games with rape, incest, child exploitation, etc.
v5v3 1y ago
But it wasn't illegal to put up a NSFW game if sold to a adult. Were Steam selling it to kids?
- shagie 1y ago
  How would Steam know? And yes, that's a problem that they're dealing with right now. Bellular News : Steam Faces Financial Obliteration: Others Are Already Dead https://youtu.be/AlDkL3DndtM https://youtu.be/AlDkL3DndtM The law being talked about in the video is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Safety_Act_2023 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Safety_Act_2023 / https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/online-safety-act-explainer/online-safety-act-explainer https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/online-safety-act... That said, not all NSFW content is allowed in all jurisdictions. Australia and Japan (for example) have laws about particular content that differs from US laws.
- giantg2 1y ago
  It is if it includes things like rape, which supposedly was what was removed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_in_Australia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_i...

Jensson 1y ago

Then they would just get removed in Australia, not worldwide.

giantg2 1y ago
My guess is that Steam wasn't able to adequately block the games in Austrailia. If people use a VPN to access the content, could Steam still be liable?
- ohdeargodno 1y ago
  No, it hasn't been the case. The group in question, Collective Shout, has been pressuring Mastercard. Not Mastercard Australia, not Steam Australia: it's a concerted action to take down things they don't want. It's not a one time thing either: sex workers have been under attack by similar extremist catholic bigots. Furries, porn, anything they see as deviant is being attacked. And MC/Visa are happy to help. Do I mind that MDMA Date With Hitler was taken down ? No, I don't believe it's a massive loss. However, the way it was done, through payment providers threatening to shut off access to the entire payment system because of their rules, is incredibly dangerous to the whole world.
  - Maken 1y ago
    This so much. The problem here is not the content that was blocked, it's the completely unaccountable process that was used to block content worldwide bypassing any legal protection.
    - 0983736882 1y ago
      Content which already violated the policies of MasterCard and Visa. All Collective Shout did was bring it to their attention.
    - giantg2 1y ago
      Steam Direct didn't update their policy on game content from what I see. Doesn't looked like Steam fought back. Seems as though Steam has never supported games with rape, incest, child exploitation, etc.
      - Maken 1y ago
        So what? Steam simply didn't want to start a fight with its payment providers over some niche content. The problem is that this incident has proven it's possible to ban whatever content you want, globally, by pressuring middle management in Mastercard and Visa.
        giantg2 1y ago
        "Steam simply didn't want to start a fight with its payment providers over some niche content." Or the content was never supported by Steam, per their policy. You can check Wayback machine for support for my position. Dod you have any evidence of Steam's motive otherwise?
        Maken 1y ago
        I don't think inferring causality here is far fetched. They were fine with the content before. And we know it because said content was banned in some countries (including Australia) to comply with local regulations, so they clearly knew what the games were about. Given that fact we have two options: either they decided to change their approach to content moderation and remove games that previously passed all their checks, with these games being coincidentally the same that were requested by Mastercard; or they decided to remove every game requested by Mastercard regardless of Steam's own policies.
- nubinetwork 1y ago
  Your steam account has a record of the country it was created in, and so does your credit card when you use it. You'd have to also get a foreign credit card and create a new steam account to even use a VPN to buy games from another region.
- benterix 1y ago
  No, it's enough that they do basic geoblocking just like streaming and other companies.
- Mindwipe 1y ago
  Steam already blocks games sufficiently for Australian law in some cases about ratings and drug use, as it does in many territories.
- meinersbur 1y ago
  They absolutely do have that infrastructure. They implemented every country's content rating system, such as PEGI, ESRB, ... . Games are regionally banned, such as in Germany [1]. Games can also have regionally censored games, typically for violence/gore in Germany [2]. With the strange effect that if you change your account's region, it re-downloads some of the games. The legal situation with VPNs and traveling between regions is the same as with any internet service. [1] https://steamcommunity.com/groups/foruncut/discussions/17/412448792363880797/ https://steamcommunity.com/groups/foruncut/discussions/17/41... [2] https://steamcommunity.com/groups/foruncut/discussions/17/392184522703312743/ https://steamcommunity.com/groups/foruncut/discussions/17/39...

ddtaylor 1y ago

Do you have info on the US law? I am curious if it follows the same trend Russia set years ago with requiring them to put a large deposit and if they break the rules they get to keep all the money.

giantg2 1y ago
It doesn't go that far. These are part of the Know Your Customer type of law. These have increasingly been pushed as part of anti money laundering onto banks, investments, and processors. If a company is selling illegal things or things that even could potentially be illegal, then they get blacklisted. Similar thing to pot companies.
- ascagnel_ 1y ago
  Marijuana sales, at least in the US, are a whole different can of worms, because marijuana exists as kind of a Schroedinger's illicit substance: its legal at a state level in most US states, while simultaneously illegal at the federal level. Anyone with a multi-state footprint that exists in that transaction chain could be held liable.
  - ddtaylor 1y ago
    And they have threatened payment processors, etc. basically anyone who gets to big.

tmvphil 1y ago

As opposed to a hypothetical scenario where it is legal to participate in illegal transactions?

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

freddie_mercury 1y ago

Why would there be outrage at laws when the article we're talking about specifically says this isn't about any laws but instead about a Mastercard rule about damaging their brand?

giantg2 1y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_in_Australia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_i... Also, Steam Direct didn't update their policy on game content from what I see. Doesn't looked like Steam fought back. Seems as though Steam has never supported games with rape, incest, child exploitation, etc.

v5v3 1y ago

But it wasn't illegal to put up a NSFW game if sold to a adult. Were Steam selling it to kids?

shagie 1y ago
How would Steam know? And yes, that's a problem that they're dealing with right now. Bellular News : Steam Faces Financial Obliteration: Others Are Already Dead https://youtu.be/AlDkL3DndtM https://youtu.be/AlDkL3DndtM The law being talked about in the video is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Safety_Act_2023 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Safety_Act_2023 / https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/online-safety-act-explainer/online-safety-act-explainer https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/online-safety-act... That said, not all NSFW content is allowed in all jurisdictions. Australia and Japan (for example) have laws about particular content that differs from US laws.
giantg2 1y ago
It is if it includes things like rape, which supposedly was what was removed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_in_Australia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_i...