5 ms·

A few days too late, sigh. If I had time then, I would have written this... I really think the hypothesis "We hate everything the US do and all their close fri

by berntb 14y ago

A few days too late, sigh. If I had time then, I would have written this... I really think the hypothesis "We hate everything the US do and all their close friends" fits better as an explanation for the left's double standards. (Even without considering the venom against equally uneducated right wing extremist idiots.) Disclaimer -- I only know Sweden well, but similar positions are seen also in English. Here the media are very left leaning and tend to straight out censor pro-Israeli news and negative information about Palestinians. Swedish media never mentioned e.g. Pallywood and the same goes for news about torture between Palestinian groups. UN's Ban's recent Iran criticism in Teheran was mangled in the translation(!) -- that is quite typical. And so on. It is just hard to not see my local left wingers as propagandists in this question. Often even filled with hate. (Swedish media is why I follow this subject, I grew up believing them -- and I'm totally disgusted by now. The Mid East is a good test of Swedish media.) >>I think the left would object to the notion that the justice system should have anything to do with punishment; its goals should be the prevention of crime, which is served a little bit by deterrence, and much more by reform. I know all about this -- Sweden. These are the questions that are never answered: The left seriously argue against both the existence of game theory and the existence of uncurable psychopaths? Is the left really aware of that many crime victims gets their lives destroyed?

lmm 14y ago
>I really think the hypothesis "We hate everything the US do and all their close friends" fits better as an explanation for the left's double standards. Shrug. It's possible. Obviously as someone who takes quite a lot of the leftist view I don't like that explanation. >The left seriously argue against both the existence of game theory Interestingly criminals tend not to take a rational approach to evaluating the risk of punishment (or else, their utility function is rather skewed). There's a wealth of evidence that longer prison sentences don't deter crime any more than short ones, and while the threat of prison has some deterrent effect, it's less efficient overall than e.g. community service (which has far better reoffending rates) >and the existence of uncurable psychopaths? While such people exist, a) they make up a tiny proportion of the current prison population b) prison, and "punishment" in general, is not really an appropriate way to deal with them. Some people genuinely do need to be kept out of society, but we can deal with those cases as a medical matter rather than crime and punishment. >Is the left really aware of that many crime victims gets their lives destroyed? You'll find a lot less sympathy for violent criminals than property crimes. Certainly the leftist position would be that, considering their overall life, a typical burglar is more in need of help from society than their typical victim, but I don't think that's so unreasonable. Certainly going by the obvious financial measure it's true.
- berntb 14y ago
  Thanks for the answer. You have nothing to add re Israel's existence? As I wrote: Why no indignation AT ALL over the coldly planned destruction of Palestinian lives in the camps of Libanon, Syria, etc?! All other cases in WW I/II have been laid behind them by the victims, but this. To the other arguments might be added that more Jews had to flee in the Middle East (including the West Bank 1948) than Palestinians 1948. Ethnic cleansing -- because of their religion, not in the middle of a dirty civil war... Those Jews got most assets stolen, including multiple times larger area than Israel itself. Why is there no indignation at all?! I could probably add more. But the previous two which the left ignores are at least as bad as anything Israel has done, even with the left's description of Israel. I can't use any milder description than "disgusting double standards", especially if you add the non-criticism of state supported nazi hate propaganda... Re crime: >>There's a wealth of evidence that longer prison sentences don't deter crime any more than short ones I've heard that sentence length is irrelevant since I started school, but... It seems just too close to other lies they fed us in Swedish school. 1. Is that measured for first time criminals only? It is a big step to risk jail. 2. To simplify, there are two types of criminals. The first are the idiots that drink beer on a Saturday and get in a knife fight and the second type consider and weigh for/against like any other entrepeneur. How is the sentence length sensitivity if you ignore things like drunks that knife each others? 3. Sentences have influence. A proof: If there was a death sentence for e.g. jay walking, not even I would do it (sober, see 2.). But -- I wouldn't jaywalk even if it was just one year in jail. In that way, there is no influence by sentence length -- is that how the claim is measured? 4. But certainly, psychopaths are not that influenced by punishment... >>[psychopaths are a tiny part of the prison population and can be handled as a separate case] Do you have a reference for the claim? The figures I've seen (easy to google, from Hare afaik) say 20% of the US prison population, 50%(!) of all violent crime. That is hardly something minimal to just ignore...?! >> a typical burglar is more in need of help from society than their typical victim I know of a couple of females that were very, very upset over a burglary and had e.g. nerve problems and problems sleeping home for quite a while. I slept with a couple of knives for a couple of months. I only know about Sweden. Afaik, there are two types of burglars: - Hard drug users. The logical solution is not to give them short sentences if they aren't likely to have stopped the drugs -- for their own sake. - International crime syndicates -- see type two above (entrepeneur).

by berntb 14y ago

lmm 14y ago

>I really think the hypothesis "We hate everything the US do and all their close friends" fits better as an explanation for the left's double standards. Shrug. It's possible. Obviously as someone who takes quite a lot of the leftist view I don't like that explanation. >The left seriously argue against both the existence of game theory Interestingly criminals tend not to take a rational approach to evaluating the risk of punishment (or else, their utility function is rather skewed). There's a wealth of evidence that longer prison sentences don't deter crime any more than short ones, and while the threat of prison has some deterrent effect, it's less efficient overall than e.g. community service (which has far better reoffending rates) >and the existence of uncurable psychopaths? While such people exist, a) they make up a tiny proportion of the current prison population b) prison, and "punishment" in general, is not really an appropriate way to deal with them. Some people genuinely do need to be kept out of society, but we can deal with those cases as a medical matter rather than crime and punishment. >Is the left really aware of that many crime victims gets their lives destroyed? You'll find a lot less sympathy for violent criminals than property crimes. Certainly the leftist position would be that, considering their overall life, a typical burglar is more in need of help from society than their typical victim, but I don't think that's so unreasonable. Certainly going by the obvious financial measure it's true.

berntb 14y ago
Thanks for the answer. You have nothing to add re Israel's existence? As I wrote: Why no indignation AT ALL over the coldly planned destruction of Palestinian lives in the camps of Libanon, Syria, etc?! All other cases in WW I/II have been laid behind them by the victims, but this. To the other arguments might be added that more Jews had to flee in the Middle East (including the West Bank 1948) than Palestinians 1948. Ethnic cleansing -- because of their religion, not in the middle of a dirty civil war... Those Jews got most assets stolen, including multiple times larger area than Israel itself. Why is there no indignation at all?! I could probably add more. But the previous two which the left ignores are at least as bad as anything Israel has done, even with the left's description of Israel. I can't use any milder description than "disgusting double standards", especially if you add the non-criticism of state supported nazi hate propaganda... Re crime: >>There's a wealth of evidence that longer prison sentences don't deter crime any more than short ones I've heard that sentence length is irrelevant since I started school, but... It seems just too close to other lies they fed us in Swedish school. 1. Is that measured for first time criminals only? It is a big step to risk jail. 2. To simplify, there are two types of criminals. The first are the idiots that drink beer on a Saturday and get in a knife fight and the second type consider and weigh for/against like any other entrepeneur. How is the sentence length sensitivity if you ignore things like drunks that knife each others? 3. Sentences have influence. A proof: If there was a death sentence for e.g. jay walking, not even I would do it (sober, see 2.). But -- I wouldn't jaywalk even if it was just one year in jail. In that way, there is no influence by sentence length -- is that how the claim is measured? 4. But certainly, psychopaths are not that influenced by punishment... >>[psychopaths are a tiny part of the prison population and can be handled as a separate case] Do you have a reference for the claim? The figures I've seen (easy to google, from Hare afaik) say 20% of the US prison population, 50%(!) of all violent crime. That is hardly something minimal to just ignore...?! >> a typical burglar is more in need of help from society than their typical victim I know of a couple of females that were very, very upset over a burglary and had e.g. nerve problems and problems sleeping home for quite a while. I slept with a couple of knives for a couple of months. I only know about Sweden. Afaik, there are two types of burglars: - Hard drug users. The logical solution is not to give them short sentences if they aren't likely to have stopped the drugs -- for their own sake. - International crime syndicates -- see type two above (entrepeneur).