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> Now take a look at academia. Where does all that money come from? Taxes. Where do Taxes come from? Business and profit. Academic progress comes from business.

> Now take a look at academia. Where does all that money come from? Taxes. Where do Taxes come from? Business and profit. Academic progress comes from business. Where does the common education system and legal system system underpins the business world come from? Government. Who puts dollar bills into the hands of people and tells them "come next tax season, we're going to ask you for a bunch of dollars at gunpoint, which will make them valuable, so you better have some", which creates the demand for dollars which stimulates the economy? Government. "Business and profit" are not possible without government, which will do stuff like "fund research into the internet so we don't lose the Cold War if the Russians nuke us", which leads to Google and Meta having great "business and profit", "spend billions on aircraft carriers patrolling the oceans to make sure that shipment of shoes Nike spend 3 dollars per pair to make in Cambodia gets to California where it will be resold for 100 dollars a pair", and "fund a school system and research institutions to ensure a steady stream of educated workers to build the miracle of modern capitalism". So if you believe all progress comes from business and profit, you believe all progress comes from the government, because business and profit is a side effect of governement. I encourage you to read Debt and Dawn of Everything by Graeber for more information on this subject :)

wizzwizz4 1y ago
Money itself also comes from government: like all institutions, it requires maintenance.
- ninetyninenine 1y ago
  No it doesn't. Money has many times evolved naturally from circumstance. Government controlled money also evolves from circumstance usually in the form of a banking system.
  - achenet 1y ago
    Yes it does. Read Graeber's Debt before making false statements please.
ninetyninenine 1y ago
>So if you believe all progress comes from business and profit, you believe all progress comes from the government, because business and profit is a side effect of governement. Your logic is truly out of this world. Just because government is involved with progress DOES not mean it's the origin of all progress. Everything you listed is government aiding and facilitating in progress. Nothing of what you said necessarily means the government is a requirement for progress. You remember that the american economy existed BEFORE money was minted by the government right? You read history right? So how the heck does your argument fit in the world of common sense? Like your incredible logic is Government makes money, therefore government is responsible for progress. You realize that "money" aka gold, aka other forms of currency have existed without governments right? I don't need to read a book to know about the anthropological origins of debt or money. Like clearly either you're an idiot, or you're just treating me like one coming up with completely misguided logic to point out what? To read some book? Please.
- achenet 1y ago
  > You remember that the american economy existed BEFORE money was minted by the government right? You read history right? So how the heck does your argument fit in the world of common sense? Like your incredible logic is Government makes money, therefore government is responsible for progress. er... you mean when it was using money minted by the English/British government? > You realize that "money" aka gold, aka other forms of currency have existed without governments right? The use of precious metals as currency happened after the creation of debt-based paper money, and was tightly linked to what you'd at least call proto-governmental bureaucratic institutions - the temples of Sumerian cities would decree that one talent of silver was worth a bushel of barley (so roughly a day's wages), and people would do accounting using the silver talent as a unit of value, but that only worked because there was a large temple, with plentiful talent reserves, to act a a starting point for stuff like "laborer A promises laborer B half a talent tomorrow if laborer B gives laborer A a hand on task X today", or "farmer 1 gives farmer 2 one talent's worth of barley today, with a promise that a year from now, farmer 2 will give the holder of this promissory note two talent's worth of barley or silver". So... my suggestion that perhaps you may be drawing your conclusions based on imperfect understandings of history may not be completely out there. > Like clearly either you're an idiot, yeah you got me, I'm an idiot :D > you're just treating me like one coming up with completely misguided logic to point out what? To read some book? I apologize if you feel like I'm condescending. That's not my intention, I'm just pointing out you seem to be repeating a falsehood, albeit one that is very popular in American political discourse, that money/business/commerce can somehow happen without government. Like this Reagan-era meme is patently false, maybe in the fucking 80s no one had internet to verify that it was false, but in 2025 I think people should realize it was bullshit made up by the neocons to cut social services, and has about as much bearing on the truth as the whole "God made earth exactly as it is 6000 years ago" myth that creationists say is just as true as the geological theories which help us find oil. Like with all due respect, you're saying "money happens without government", I'm saying "bro, Graeber has a several thousand page book explaining exactly why that's bullshit". I do feel justified.

wizzwizz4 1y ago

Money itself also comes from government: like all institutions, it requires maintenance.

ninetyninenine 1y ago
No it doesn't. Money has many times evolved naturally from circumstance. Government controlled money also evolves from circumstance usually in the form of a banking system.
- achenet 1y ago
  Yes it does. Read Graeber's Debt before making false statements please.

ninetyninenine 1y ago

>So if you believe all progress comes from business and profit, you believe all progress comes from the government, because business and profit is a side effect of governement. Your logic is truly out of this world. Just because government is involved with progress DOES not mean it's the origin of all progress. Everything you listed is government aiding and facilitating in progress. Nothing of what you said necessarily means the government is a requirement for progress. You remember that the american economy existed BEFORE money was minted by the government right? You read history right? So how the heck does your argument fit in the world of common sense? Like your incredible logic is Government makes money, therefore government is responsible for progress. You realize that "money" aka gold, aka other forms of currency have existed without governments right? I don't need to read a book to know about the anthropological origins of debt or money. Like clearly either you're an idiot, or you're just treating me like one coming up with completely misguided logic to point out what? To read some book? Please.

achenet 1y ago
> You remember that the american economy existed BEFORE money was minted by the government right? You read history right? So how the heck does your argument fit in the world of common sense? Like your incredible logic is Government makes money, therefore government is responsible for progress. er... you mean when it was using money minted by the English/British government? > You realize that "money" aka gold, aka other forms of currency have existed without governments right? The use of precious metals as currency happened after the creation of debt-based paper money, and was tightly linked to what you'd at least call proto-governmental bureaucratic institutions - the temples of Sumerian cities would decree that one talent of silver was worth a bushel of barley (so roughly a day's wages), and people would do accounting using the silver talent as a unit of value, but that only worked because there was a large temple, with plentiful talent reserves, to act a a starting point for stuff like "laborer A promises laborer B half a talent tomorrow if laborer B gives laborer A a hand on task X today", or "farmer 1 gives farmer 2 one talent's worth of barley today, with a promise that a year from now, farmer 2 will give the holder of this promissory note two talent's worth of barley or silver". So... my suggestion that perhaps you may be drawing your conclusions based on imperfect understandings of history may not be completely out there. > Like clearly either you're an idiot, yeah you got me, I'm an idiot :D > you're just treating me like one coming up with completely misguided logic to point out what? To read some book? I apologize if you feel like I'm condescending. That's not my intention, I'm just pointing out you seem to be repeating a falsehood, albeit one that is very popular in American political discourse, that money/business/commerce can somehow happen without government. Like this Reagan-era meme is patently false, maybe in the fucking 80s no one had internet to verify that it was false, but in 2025 I think people should realize it was bullshit made up by the neocons to cut social services, and has about as much bearing on the truth as the whole "God made earth exactly as it is 6000 years ago" myth that creationists say is just as true as the geological theories which help us find oil. Like with all due respect, you're saying "money happens without government", I'm saying "bro, Graeber has a several thousand page book explaining exactly why that's bullshit". I do feel justified.