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Texas Students Revolt Against Mandatory RFID Tracking Chips

43 points by toomuchcoffee 14y ago

nathanpc 14y ago
“It makes me uncomfortable. It’s an invasion of my privacy” That's bullshit. Its not by any means a invasion of privacy since you're in a school, which may already have cameras to track you. This is for the good of the students. Here in Brazil we have these and they are great for the school and the students, no invasion of privacy, and helps the school to know if you're in or out.
- ddorian43 14y ago
  So is there a big benefit for the school to know if your in or out ? Any other benefit ?
- dudeanon842 14y ago
  Since you are in a school, you don't have any privacy? That's the bullshit. Students shouldn't be treated like inmates.
- Schwolop 14y ago
  What's the benefit to the students?
  - Jach 14y ago
    Increased safety, increased privacy[1], and more efficiency. [1] My school uses RFID-equipped ID badges, unfortunately they don't use them for attendance. (They should--right now people just sign an attendance sheet.) But one of their nicest uses is restrictive access based on degree program. Only computer engineers can get in the computer engineering lab, only masters' students can get in labs dedicated for masters' students, and so on.
    - EliRivers 14y ago
      I recall one of the most interesting and intellectually-stimulating aspects of university was going into lectures/labs/libraries of other degree subjects. Restricting access like this is not to increase privacy, whatever that means in this context (what, you only want privacy from people not doing the same degree?); it's a means of putting everyone into neat little boxes to make admin easier, and an attempt to placate the almighty Gods of Security.
- daurnimator 14y ago
  "since you're in a school, which may already have cameras to track you" I think most people would think thats an invasion of privacy too
- acabal 14y ago
  This post is a great example of how rights are eroded slowly. 20 years ago having cameras tracking your every move in a school would have been a strange proposition, and a system to precisely track and record your every move on campus would have been considered insane. Today cameras are accepted as normal, and a tracking system doesn't sound so bad anymore. Really scary stuff. If you told a person 20 years ago that the government would be taking naked pictures of you before you got on an airplane, they wouldn't have believed you. Now our children will grow up thinking that's normal, and when their kids have to agree to have a government-owned tracking camera installed in their homes to verify their behavior one month prior to their flight, that will not seem so outrageous either.
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - jfoutz 14y ago
    Schools have always taken attendance, and not being able to locate a specific student at a random time is, well, bad. If Principal Vernon didn't catch you, did you still break the rules? The house camera thing sounds expensive.
    - acabal 14y ago
      Schools have also managed to more or less solve the problem for centuries already without cameras or RFID tracking. House cameras do sound expensive. They also sound ridiculous. But just a few years ago, mandatory naked pictures of your body before boarding a plane also sounded ridiculous. And they cost $170,000 each[1], which I imagine doesn't include maintenance and salaries for the operators. That sounds expensive. [1] http://www.aolnews.com/2010/12/20/a-few-facts-about-tsas-full-body-scanners/ http://www.aolnews.com/2010/12/20/a-few-facts-about-tsas-ful...
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - jfoutz 14y ago
viraptor 14y ago
It's just a standard card with RFID embedded, right? Unless I'm wrong here, the cards can be read by the standard scanners mounted on the doors. So rather than some creepy "tracking device", they'd have to be used for registering entry/exit from a classroom explicitly - pretty much the same as any big office... Which doesn't seem to make much sense to me, since they can move around without scanning the card (enter behind another person) - this happens even in many workplaces where everyone is supposed to scan their tag on entry. Another strange part is that when looking at attendance, this seems even easier to hack - just give your tag to someone else so they can scan it. Am I missing something here? Are there RFID tags that work on longer distances? Edit: Found some long-range RFID solutions out there. Other points remain though... seems easy to game and many offices already use it.
- uptown 14y ago
  Think EZ-Pass for humans where there are sensors throughout the building mapping the location of each person. Wouldn't matter if you entered behind another person or not as your location could still be discerned with enough readers.
- naner 14y ago
  Another strange part is that when looking at attendance, this seems even easier to hack - just give your tag to someone else so they can scan it. Well they get more funds from the state if they are able to show higher attendance rates so maybe that is by design. ;)
ams6110 14y ago
Nearly all offices of any significant size do this already, using badges† to unlock various doors on the premises. By tracing your badge as it is swiped at various doors, they can pretty much determine everywhere you've been on any given day. † or codes, or biometrics, etc.
sadfaceunread 14y ago
So if this is being used to track attendance what is to stop someone from just carrying their friends id for the day through the EZ-pass at the entrance? If a student lobs their id over the fence, then walks out of the campus is the system going to think they were at school all night? Seems very problematic to implement an EZ-pass style system.
pepsi 14y ago
Most schools already have an ID scanner at the entrance to every building, some even use their IDs as a stored-value system for purchases on (or even off) campus. They already know every time you enter a building, log on to a campus PC, do your laundry. With that combined with CCTV all over campus, how does this actually make things worse for the student?
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
Miner49er 14y ago
Just put the chip in the microwave for a few seconds. It won't do any noticeable damage, and it will destroy the RFID.
- schiffern 14y ago
  Actually that leads to visible marks on the RFID. Much easier to hold the card up to the light and find the chip, then snap the traces by bending it. I did this at summer camp to great effect. I had to get a new card so I could get into the building.
  - lesterbuck 14y ago
    I renewed my passport about a year early as the chips were going into the new versions, though I hear a little percussive maintenance solves the problem when it arises again.
- toomuchcoffee 14y ago
  Then you get either marked for absenteeism, or hit with criminal penalties for "tampering with school property."
sxp 14y ago
I've always found the selective paranoia of technophobes to be strange. I would bet that the kids who object to the RFIDs are probably carrying smartphones that can be tracked just as easily: http://www.pcworld.com/article/255802/this_smartphone_tracking_tech_will_give_you_the_creeps.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/255802/this_smartphone_tracki... These RFIDs are even easier to disable than cell phones since they can just be kept in a metallic pouch when not needed, but it's much more difficult to keep a smartphone in airplane mode all the time. These people remind of other technophobes who are afraid of radiation from WiFi and cell phones for "health reasons" but don't have a problem with sunbathing. The school should just invest in some science and technology classes rather than trying to argue with these people.
- naner 14y ago
  The RFID tag IDs are explicitly being used for tracking student location by faculty and are mandatory. Smart phones are neither mandatory nor is location information available to school faculty. It isn't really the same thing. The school system is doing this because they think it will improve attendance and earn them more funding from the state. They obviously didn't educate people very well (a lot of misconceptions were apparent in the video) and I don't think this is going to necessarily improve attendance, either.
  - DenisM 14y ago
    The phone is continously broadcasting wifi and bluetooth MAC addresses, it's as good as any other radio beacon for tracking.
    - Evbn 14y ago
      But for some key difference: aiplane mode, and schools not having Bluetooth/wifi trackers running.
- toomuchcoffee 14y ago
  These RFIDs are even easier to disable than cell phones since they can just be kept in a metallic pouch when not needed, Hey guess what? If they can coerce you into carrying the devices, they can also threaten you with penalties -- ranging from marking you as "absent" or worse -- to deter you from shielding them.
cwilson 14y ago
Oh to be in school again when this type of technology is being introduced to day to day life. Am I the only one who, rather than being outraged, is thrilled at the potential hacking opportunities and other shenanigans this introduces? The fun that could be had...
- felipemnoa 14y ago
  http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Marauders_Map http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Marauders_Map
- B-Con 14y ago
  > Am I the only one who, rather than being outraged, is thrilled at the potential hacking opportunities and other shenanigans this introduces? The fun that could be had... This is (in part) why so many are outraged.
kabdib 14y ago
Faraday shields in 3, 2, 1 . . .
stillbourne 14y ago
These are HID cards we use them all the time to get into secure areas at work. When I was in college we used cards with mag strips to get in and out of our dorm rooms. How is this any different?
stillbourne 14y ago
These are HID cards we use them all the time to get into secure areas at work. When I was in college we used cards with mag strips to get in and out of our dorm rooms. How is this any different?
valdiorn 14y ago
RFIDs have a range of, what... 2 feet? So unless this is some new super-high-tech kind of RFID, it's a key, not a tracker. It's used to access the school, you swipe it when you go to class. There is nothing that makes this technology capable of tracking you out in the street. This is stupid.

43 points by toomuchcoffee 14y ago

“It makes me uncomfortable. It’s an invasion of my privacy” That's bullshit. Its not by any means a invasion of privacy since you're in a school, which may already have cameras to track you. This is for the good of the students. Here in Brazil we have these and they are great for the school and the students, no invasion of privacy, and helps the school to know if you're in or out.

ddorian43 14y ago
So is there a big benefit for the school to know if your in or out ? Any other benefit ?
dudeanon842 14y ago
Since you are in a school, you don't have any privacy? That's the bullshit. Students shouldn't be treated like inmates.
Schwolop 14y ago
What's the benefit to the students?
- Jach 14y ago
  Increased safety, increased privacy[1], and more efficiency. [1] My school uses RFID-equipped ID badges, unfortunately they don't use them for attendance. (They should--right now people just sign an attendance sheet.) But one of their nicest uses is restrictive access based on degree program. Only computer engineers can get in the computer engineering lab, only masters' students can get in labs dedicated for masters' students, and so on.
  - EliRivers 14y ago
    I recall one of the most interesting and intellectually-stimulating aspects of university was going into lectures/labs/libraries of other degree subjects. Restricting access like this is not to increase privacy, whatever that means in this context (what, you only want privacy from people not doing the same degree?); it's a means of putting everyone into neat little boxes to make admin easier, and an attempt to placate the almighty Gods of Security.
daurnimator 14y ago
"since you're in a school, which may already have cameras to track you" I think most people would think thats an invasion of privacy too
acabal 14y ago
This post is a great example of how rights are eroded slowly. 20 years ago having cameras tracking your every move in a school would have been a strange proposition, and a system to precisely track and record your every move on campus would have been considered insane. Today cameras are accepted as normal, and a tracking system doesn't sound so bad anymore. Really scary stuff. If you told a person 20 years ago that the government would be taking naked pictures of you before you got on an airplane, they wouldn't have believed you. Now our children will grow up thinking that's normal, and when their kids have to agree to have a government-owned tracking camera installed in their homes to verify their behavior one month prior to their flight, that will not seem so outrageous either.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- jfoutz 14y ago
  Schools have always taken attendance, and not being able to locate a specific student at a random time is, well, bad. If Principal Vernon didn't catch you, did you still break the rules? The house camera thing sounds expensive.
  - acabal 14y ago
    Schools have also managed to more or less solve the problem for centuries already without cameras or RFID tracking. House cameras do sound expensive. They also sound ridiculous. But just a few years ago, mandatory naked pictures of your body before boarding a plane also sounded ridiculous. And they cost $170,000 each[1], which I imagine doesn't include maintenance and salaries for the operators. That sounds expensive. [1] http://www.aolnews.com/2010/12/20/a-few-facts-about-tsas-full-body-scanners/ http://www.aolnews.com/2010/12/20/a-few-facts-about-tsas-ful...
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - jfoutz 14y ago

viraptor 14y ago

It's just a standard card with RFID embedded, right? Unless I'm wrong here, the cards can be read by the standard scanners mounted on the doors. So rather than some creepy "tracking device", they'd have to be used for registering entry/exit from a classroom explicitly - pretty much the same as any big office... Which doesn't seem to make much sense to me, since they can move around without scanning the card (enter behind another person) - this happens even in many workplaces where everyone is supposed to scan their tag on entry. Another strange part is that when looking at attendance, this seems even easier to hack - just give your tag to someone else so they can scan it. Am I missing something here? Are there RFID tags that work on longer distances? Edit: Found some long-range RFID solutions out there. Other points remain though... seems easy to game and many offices already use it.

uptown 14y ago
Think EZ-Pass for humans where there are sensors throughout the building mapping the location of each person. Wouldn't matter if you entered behind another person or not as your location could still be discerned with enough readers.
naner 14y ago
Another strange part is that when looking at attendance, this seems even easier to hack - just give your tag to someone else so they can scan it. Well they get more funds from the state if they are able to show higher attendance rates so maybe that is by design. ;)

ams6110 14y ago

Nearly all offices of any significant size do this already, using badges† to unlock various doors on the premises. By tracing your badge as it is swiped at various doors, they can pretty much determine everywhere you've been on any given day. † or codes, or biometrics, etc.

sadfaceunread 14y ago

So if this is being used to track attendance what is to stop someone from just carrying their friends id for the day through the EZ-pass at the entrance? If a student lobs their id over the fence, then walks out of the campus is the system going to think they were at school all night? Seems very problematic to implement an EZ-pass style system.

pepsi 14y ago

Most schools already have an ID scanner at the entrance to every building, some even use their IDs as a stored-value system for purchases on (or even off) campus. They already know every time you enter a building, log on to a campus PC, do your laundry. With that combined with CCTV all over campus, how does this actually make things worse for the student?

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

Miner49er 14y ago

Just put the chip in the microwave for a few seconds. It won't do any noticeable damage, and it will destroy the RFID.

schiffern 14y ago
Actually that leads to visible marks on the RFID. Much easier to hold the card up to the light and find the chip, then snap the traces by bending it. I did this at summer camp to great effect. I had to get a new card so I could get into the building.
- lesterbuck 14y ago
  I renewed my passport about a year early as the chips were going into the new versions, though I hear a little percussive maintenance solves the problem when it arises again.
toomuchcoffee 14y ago
Then you get either marked for absenteeism, or hit with criminal penalties for "tampering with school property."

sxp 14y ago

I've always found the selective paranoia of technophobes to be strange. I would bet that the kids who object to the RFIDs are probably carrying smartphones that can be tracked just as easily: http://www.pcworld.com/article/255802/this_smartphone_tracking_tech_will_give_you_the_creeps.html http://www.pcworld.com/article/255802/this_smartphone_tracki... These RFIDs are even easier to disable than cell phones since they can just be kept in a metallic pouch when not needed, but it's much more difficult to keep a smartphone in airplane mode all the time. These people remind of other technophobes who are afraid of radiation from WiFi and cell phones for "health reasons" but don't have a problem with sunbathing. The school should just invest in some science and technology classes rather than trying to argue with these people.

naner 14y ago
The RFID tag IDs are explicitly being used for tracking student location by faculty and are mandatory. Smart phones are neither mandatory nor is location information available to school faculty. It isn't really the same thing. The school system is doing this because they think it will improve attendance and earn them more funding from the state. They obviously didn't educate people very well (a lot of misconceptions were apparent in the video) and I don't think this is going to necessarily improve attendance, either.
- DenisM 14y ago
  The phone is continously broadcasting wifi and bluetooth MAC addresses, it's as good as any other radio beacon for tracking.
  - Evbn 14y ago
    But for some key difference: aiplane mode, and schools not having Bluetooth/wifi trackers running.
toomuchcoffee 14y ago
These RFIDs are even easier to disable than cell phones since they can just be kept in a metallic pouch when not needed, Hey guess what? If they can coerce you into carrying the devices, they can also threaten you with penalties -- ranging from marking you as "absent" or worse -- to deter you from shielding them.

cwilson 14y ago

Oh to be in school again when this type of technology is being introduced to day to day life. Am I the only one who, rather than being outraged, is thrilled at the potential hacking opportunities and other shenanigans this introduces? The fun that could be had...

felipemnoa 14y ago
http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Marauders_Map http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Marauders_Map
B-Con 14y ago
> Am I the only one who, rather than being outraged, is thrilled at the potential hacking opportunities and other shenanigans this introduces? The fun that could be had... This is (in part) why so many are outraged.

kabdib 14y ago

Faraday shields in 3, 2, 1 . . .

stillbourne 14y ago

These are HID cards we use them all the time to get into secure areas at work. When I was in college we used cards with mag strips to get in and out of our dorm rooms. How is this any different?

stillbourne 14y ago

These are HID cards we use them all the time to get into secure areas at work. When I was in college we used cards with mag strips to get in and out of our dorm rooms. How is this any different?

valdiorn 14y ago

RFIDs have a range of, what... 2 feet? So unless this is some new super-high-tech kind of RFID, it's a key, not a tracker. It's used to access the school, you swipe it when you go to class. There is nothing that makes this technology capable of tracking you out in the street. This is stupid.