5 ms·

Ummm, my entire career I have been telling machines what to program, the machines are taking my garbage C/Go/Python/Perl/whatever prompts and translating it to

Ummm, my entire career I have been telling machines what to program, the machines are taking my garbage C/Go/Python/Perl/whatever prompts and translating it to ASM/Machine code that oher machines will use to do... stuff

shortrounddev2 1y ago
They're substantively different. Using a compiler requires you to have an internalized model of a state machine and, importantly, a formal language. C, assembler, java, etc. are all essentially different from using the softness of the English language to coerce results out of a black box
- awesome_dude 1y ago
  No, not at all. In both all you need is the ability to communicate to the machine in a way that the machine can convert your ideas into actions. The restricted language of a compiler is a handicap, not evidence of a skill - we've been saying forever that "Natural Language" compilers would be a game changer, and that's all that an AI really is Edit: It appears that this discussion is going to end up with a definition of "coding" Is it coding if you tell the computer to perform some action, or is it coding if you tell it how to do that in some highly optimised way (for varying definitions of optimised, eg. Memory efficient, CPU efficient, Dev time efficient... etc)
  - shortrounddev2 1y ago
    It is not coding if you use natural human language
    - awesome_dude 1y ago
      How so? BASIC was supposed to be astep toward using a natural human language, and a number of Microsoft products were too. As I said before, we've been wanting to use a Natural Human Language for programming for a long time. Edit: adding a wikipedia reference because apparently I am the only person on the planet that has been looking for a way to use a Natural Human Language for programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_language_programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_language_programming Second Edit: Adding the following paragraph from the wikipedia page for emphasis Researchers have started to experiment with natural language programming environments that use plain language prompts and then use AI (specifically large language models) to turn natural language into formal code. For example Spatial Pixel created a natural language programming environment to turn natural language into P5.js code through OpenAI's API. In 2021 OpenAI developed a natural language programming environment for their programming large language model called Codex.
      - shortrounddev2 1y ago
        Maybe you have. I would like no such thing.
        awesome_dude 1y ago
        Oh, and.. who are you?
    - exe34 1y ago
      I think after all the goalpost moving, we have to ask - why the bitflip does it matter what we call it? Some people are getting a lot of work done using LLMs. Some of us are using it on occasion to handle thing we don't understand deeply but can trivially verify. Some of us are using it out of laziness because it helps with boilerplate. Everyone who is using it outside of occasional tests is doing it because they find it useful to write code. If it's not coding, then I personally couldn't care less. Only a True Scotsman should case.
      - shortrounddev2 1y ago
        If my boss came to me and said "hey we're going to start vibe coding everything st work from now on. You can manually edit code but claude code needs to be your primary driver from now on" I would quit and find a new career. I enjoy coding. I like solving puzzles using the specifics of a language syntax. I write libraries and APIs and I put a great deal of effort into making sure the interface is usable by a human being. If we get to the point where we are no longer coding, we are just describing things in product language to a computer and letting it do all the real work, then I will find a more fulfilling career because this ain't it
        exe34 1y ago
        By the time it works flawlessly, it won't be your career anymore, it'll be the product manager's. They will describe what they want and the AI will produce it. You won't be told to "use Claude all the time". I personally hate coding, but it's a means to an end, and I care about the end. I'm also paranoid about code I don't understand, so I only rarely use AI and even then it's either for things I understand 100% or things that don't matter. But it would be silly to claim they don't produce working code, no matter what we want to call it.
        shortrounddev2 1y ago
        This is the core of the issue. You hate coding, and I love it. I chose to be a software engineer not because I like using software, but because I like writing software. If we get to a point where the engineers are replaced by machines, I would hope that the project managers were replaced years before that, as a final act of revenge
  - leptons 1y ago
    Writing code that gets compiled is deterministic, but asking an LLM to produce code is a non-deterministic guessing game. Notice how nobody is skeptical of compilers?
    - aryonoco 1y ago
      No one is skeptical of compilers?! I guess you haven’t met many old fashioned C systems programmers, who go out of their way to disable compiler optimisations as much as they can because “it just produces garbage”. Every generation, we seem to add a level of abstraction conceding because for most of us, it enhances productivity. And every generation, there is a crowd who rails against the new abstraction, mostly unaware of all of the levels of abstraction they already use in their coding.
      - awesome_dude 1y ago
        Luxury! When I were a lad we didn't have them new fangled compilers, we wrote ASM by hand, because compilers cannot (and still to this day I think) optimise ASM as well as a human
      - leptons 1y ago
        Abstractions and compilers are deterministic, no matter if a neckbeard is cranky about the results. LLMs are not deterministic, they are a guessing game. An LLM is not an abstraction, it's a distraction. If you can't tell the difference, then maybe you should lay off the "AI" slop.
        awesome_dude 1y ago
        I've been thinking about this - you're right that LLMs are not going to be deterministic (AIUI) when it comes to producing code to solve a problem. BUT neither are humans, if you give two different humans the same task, then, unless they copy one another, then you will get two different results. Further, as those humans evolve through their career, the code that they produce will also change. Now, I do want to point out that I'm very much still at the "LLMs are an aid, not the full answer.. yet" point, but a lot of the argument against them seems to be (rapidly) coming to the point where it's no longer valid (AI slop and all).

shortrounddev2 1y ago

They're substantively different. Using a compiler requires you to have an internalized model of a state machine and, importantly, a formal language. C, assembler, java, etc. are all essentially different from using the softness of the English language to coerce results out of a black box

awesome_dude 1y ago
No, not at all. In both all you need is the ability to communicate to the machine in a way that the machine can convert your ideas into actions. The restricted language of a compiler is a handicap, not evidence of a skill - we've been saying forever that "Natural Language" compilers would be a game changer, and that's all that an AI really is Edit: It appears that this discussion is going to end up with a definition of "coding" Is it coding if you tell the computer to perform some action, or is it coding if you tell it how to do that in some highly optimised way (for varying definitions of optimised, eg. Memory efficient, CPU efficient, Dev time efficient... etc)
- shortrounddev2 1y ago
  It is not coding if you use natural human language
  - awesome_dude 1y ago
    How so? BASIC was supposed to be astep toward using a natural human language, and a number of Microsoft products were too. As I said before, we've been wanting to use a Natural Human Language for programming for a long time. Edit: adding a wikipedia reference because apparently I am the only person on the planet that has been looking for a way to use a Natural Human Language for programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_language_programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_language_programming Second Edit: Adding the following paragraph from the wikipedia page for emphasis Researchers have started to experiment with natural language programming environments that use plain language prompts and then use AI (specifically large language models) to turn natural language into formal code. For example Spatial Pixel created a natural language programming environment to turn natural language into P5.js code through OpenAI's API. In 2021 OpenAI developed a natural language programming environment for their programming large language model called Codex.
    - shortrounddev2 1y ago
      Maybe you have. I would like no such thing.
      - awesome_dude 1y ago
        Oh, and.. who are you?
  - exe34 1y ago
    I think after all the goalpost moving, we have to ask - why the bitflip does it matter what we call it? Some people are getting a lot of work done using LLMs. Some of us are using it on occasion to handle thing we don't understand deeply but can trivially verify. Some of us are using it out of laziness because it helps with boilerplate. Everyone who is using it outside of occasional tests is doing it because they find it useful to write code. If it's not coding, then I personally couldn't care less. Only a True Scotsman should case.
    - shortrounddev2 1y ago
      If my boss came to me and said "hey we're going to start vibe coding everything st work from now on. You can manually edit code but claude code needs to be your primary driver from now on" I would quit and find a new career. I enjoy coding. I like solving puzzles using the specifics of a language syntax. I write libraries and APIs and I put a great deal of effort into making sure the interface is usable by a human being. If we get to the point where we are no longer coding, we are just describing things in product language to a computer and letting it do all the real work, then I will find a more fulfilling career because this ain't it
      - exe34 1y ago
        By the time it works flawlessly, it won't be your career anymore, it'll be the product manager's. They will describe what they want and the AI will produce it. You won't be told to "use Claude all the time". I personally hate coding, but it's a means to an end, and I care about the end. I'm also paranoid about code I don't understand, so I only rarely use AI and even then it's either for things I understand 100% or things that don't matter. But it would be silly to claim they don't produce working code, no matter what we want to call it.
        shortrounddev2 1y ago
        This is the core of the issue. You hate coding, and I love it. I chose to be a software engineer not because I like using software, but because I like writing software. If we get to a point where the engineers are replaced by machines, I would hope that the project managers were replaced years before that, as a final act of revenge
- leptons 1y ago
  Writing code that gets compiled is deterministic, but asking an LLM to produce code is a non-deterministic guessing game. Notice how nobody is skeptical of compilers?
  - aryonoco 1y ago
    No one is skeptical of compilers?! I guess you haven’t met many old fashioned C systems programmers, who go out of their way to disable compiler optimisations as much as they can because “it just produces garbage”. Every generation, we seem to add a level of abstraction conceding because for most of us, it enhances productivity. And every generation, there is a crowd who rails against the new abstraction, mostly unaware of all of the levels of abstraction they already use in their coding.
    - awesome_dude 1y ago
      Luxury! When I were a lad we didn't have them new fangled compilers, we wrote ASM by hand, because compilers cannot (and still to this day I think) optimise ASM as well as a human
    - leptons 1y ago
      Abstractions and compilers are deterministic, no matter if a neckbeard is cranky about the results. LLMs are not deterministic, they are a guessing game. An LLM is not an abstraction, it's a distraction. If you can't tell the difference, then maybe you should lay off the "AI" slop.
      - awesome_dude 1y ago
        I've been thinking about this - you're right that LLMs are not going to be deterministic (AIUI) when it comes to producing code to solve a problem. BUT neither are humans, if you give two different humans the same task, then, unless they copy one another, then you will get two different results. Further, as those humans evolve through their career, the code that they produce will also change. Now, I do want to point out that I'm very much still at the "LLMs are an aid, not the full answer.. yet" point, but a lot of the argument against them seems to be (rapidly) coming to the point where it's no longer valid (AI slop and all).