5 ms·

> "It's very difficult to make a seven-row keyboard anymore because of the aspect ratio of the display and the whole arrangement of the pieces on the inside," h

> "It's very difficult to make a seven-row keyboard anymore because of the aspect ratio of the display and the whole arrangement of the pieces on the inside," he said. "It's a decision that was not made lightly, however. I still like the seven-row keyboard and, as aspect ratios change, and they continue to change, I don't know. Maybe someday somebody will be interested in it again." The sad part is, the Framework 13 has a 3:2 display (with a stupidly large bottom bezel, too, for good reasons), but still uses a bog-standard modern laptop keyboard, including (unlike the ThinkPad) the miserable half-height arrow keys. They did bother to make a Copilot key, though. Just not a better keyboard.

walterbell 1y ago
> aspect ratio of the display Meanwhile, Apple sold 500+ million HiDPI 4:3 displays on iPads. Do they have a supply chain lock on 4:3 screens?
- mananaysiempre 1y ago
  Possibly. It’s hugely expensive to order a completely custom screen, and I know Framework waited for a long time for a better 3:2 display to come onto the market after the initial one—the current better panel is actually a compromise that loses some pixels to rounded corners, which is fine but IMO not “pay $270+tax+shipping for the upgrade” fine. Looking at the specs of the screens, I’m almost sure that both the original 2256×1504 one and the rounded-corners 2880×1920 one are actually identical to the ones in the Microsoft Surface (changed to a matte finish), so it’s Microsoft footing the custom-screen bill in this case. (I’ve heard we’re not getting small phones for a similar reason: you would need to sell a lot of phones to justify a new screen, and all the small-phone people will still begrudgingly buy a large one if there are no small ones.)
  - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    The big selling point of the higher tier FW13 screen option is that it’s conducive to 2x/200% UI scaling, which is surprisingly rare in x86 laptops and is desirable under Linux. Fractional scaling displays technically work but have some notable quirks, where 2x scaling has worked flawlessly for a long time.
- masklinn 1y ago
  I’m pretty sure it’s just that 16:9 are so ubiquitous they’re by far the cheapest option. Hell, Apple shipping millions of 4:3 should keep them reasonable affordable. Same with 16:10 back when those were still a thing (because of the notch Apple now uses 9:5.85 displays to retain a rectangular 16:10 fullscreen).
ginko 1y ago
No one asked for a 16:9 thinkpad though.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  16:9 displays were inevitable due to the economies of scale form the TV industry. It's a shame they had to be 1366x768 for so long. I remember many eons ago in the last 2000s to early 2010s when I wanted a 16:10 monitor for my PC and the price difference between 1920x1080 and 1920x1200 or between 2560x1440 and 2560x1600 was massive, that it made no sense to get the few extra vertical pixels of the 16:10 unless you were loaded and money was no issue. Even 4k 16:9 monitors a few years after launch, were cheaper than 16:10 2560x1600 ones which have already been on the market far longer. Crazy.
  - 4ad 1y ago
    I call BS on that, as Macbooks somehow always kept being 16:10. In fact you could easily buy 16:10 panels, I know because for many years I upgraded old 16:10 Thinkpads with modern displays.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      Nothing what I said is BS, the price differences on external 16:10 monitors were significantly more expensive than 16:9 ones. Look it up. > old 16:10 Thinkpads with modern displays. Yes you're talking about the really old 16:10 ones from the mid to late 2000s, right before they switched to 16:9 cause they were cheaper to make due to the HD TV era. Add then today they switched back to 16:10. So no, it's no BS that scale allows for much cheaper products, but Apple could stick to 16:10 since they never catered to cheap and it would probably cost them more in SW dev and tooling to reengineer their OS GUI and chassis for 16:9 than to keep the production lines as is since their product line back then had like 3 laptops total. And maybe start with good faith before screaming BS. No need to be rude just because people have different opinions and experiences than you.
      - 1y ago
wpm 1y ago
The Framework keyboard is precisely why I haven’t bought one. The mixed height arrow key thing sucked on the touchbar MacBook Pros, they suck on FWs too. The second the 13 gets a normal inverted T, I buy one. In the meantime, I’m waiting on a display converter board to show up from China so I can install a modernish 1440p display in my T420.
- mananaysiempre 1y ago
  The “normal” inverted T is just another variation of the same suckage as far as I’m concerned (slightly worse, if anything, because I tend to wear away the paint—and eventually plastic—on a tiny left-arrow key faster than on a normal one). Look at the photos in TFA[1] for how good arrow keys are arranged. [1] e.g. https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg (the presence of a Break key almost makes me cry)
  - normie3000 1y ago
    > https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg Doesn't this photo show an inverted T?
    - notpushkin 1y ago
      I think a “normal” inverted T consists of half-height keys (i.e. used on most current laptops). ThinkPads used slightly higher arrow keys for a while, not sure about now.
      - layer8 1y ago
        A normal inverted T is what is on a standard desktop PC keyboard: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Arrow_keys.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Arrow_ke... While half-height arrow keys have become common on laptops, that's probably not what GP (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44769440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44769440) meant by "normal". ThinkPads generally use slightly smaller keys for the arrow keys, but still significantly taller than half-height, like for example here: https://p3-ofp.static.pub/ShareResource/560x450/SSNP/4Y40X49493/4Y40X49493-560x450-01.8449bcbf5e5aa641.png https://p3-ofp.static.pub/ShareResource/560x450/SSNP/4Y40X49... What people really want is a full-height inverted T like on this Lenovo gaming laptop: https://p1-ofp.static.pub//fes/cms/2025/05/21/uft1eixrszorypehb4ern6ol5r2lur937054.png https://p1-ofp.static.pub//fes/cms/2025/05/21/uft1eixrszoryp...
nrp 1y ago
We have 1.5mm key travel, the keyboard is replaceable, and the vast majority of our keyboard artwork options don’t have a Copilot logo.
- mananaysiempre 1y ago
  All true. My previous laptop was a 2014 MBP, and the two basically feel the same. I’d say the MBP’s layout is marginally worse because of the stupid power key and the half-size left and right arrows, and of course the MBP’s construction makes your life hell if you spill liquid on the keyboard and need to replace it. (Framework’s prohibition on freight forwarding makes my life difficult in the same situation, but that’s a me problem—I should have taken the hint that I wasn’t wanted when I was jumping through hoops to buy it in the first place.) It’s not a bad keyboard. As far as laptops of the last decade go, it’s even a good one. But the up/down arrows sucked on the MBP and they (though not left/right) suck on the FW13, I expect(?) because a rectangular keyboard ends up cheaper than one with protruding arrows. Furthermore, my (grandparent) comment was about how vertical shrinkage made the keyboard smaller but the FW13’s taller screen didn’t restore the missing keys, and if half-size up/down arrows just suck to use, Home/End/PgUp/PgDn hidden behind Fn suck to a Pavlovian extent: I didn’t realize how much the MBP trained me out of using them before I had to use an older ThinkPad for a bit that had them on separate keys. I won’t even mention Ctrl-Break except to look in its direction wistfully. Finally, the Copilot key is of course a distraction. I don’t know what it actually sends on those keyboards, but if I can map that to Compose I couldn’t care less about what’s drawn on it. It’s just sad that, after everything, that distraction is what ended up being the first substantial change to the FW13’s keyboard.
- nh2 1y ago
  Please just give us an option to buy a 7 row Thinkpad keyboard with Trackpoint. There are talented keyboard makers like Tex that already pulled this off, making better hardware than Lenovo itself, and you could instantaneously win most Thinkpad users over, likely permanently.
- dogcow 1y ago
  Please offer a good TrackPoint keyboard. Please.
spankibalt 1y ago
Turn the ThinkPad X12 into a modernized and more maintainable HP ZBook x2 G4, complete with EMR stylus. Keep the size or make it even smaller. Offer a bunch of first-rate keyboard options. For both machine's got the best form factor in that size-class there is: the detachable, the evolution of the convertible of yesteryear. It's really not hard to figure out. Whatcha get instead? Garbage like silly rolling-display laptops. Or even worse, The Homer of the laptop world: these bizarre contraptions with two or three foldout displays. It's just missing a cup holder. Framework borked it here as well. I just don't understand why you waste time, energy and money on developing and building a substandard machine (Framework 12) in an outdated form factor.

walterbell 1y ago

> aspect ratio of the display Meanwhile, Apple sold 500+ million HiDPI 4:3 displays on iPads. Do they have a supply chain lock on 4:3 screens?

mananaysiempre 1y ago
Possibly. It’s hugely expensive to order a completely custom screen, and I know Framework waited for a long time for a better 3:2 display to come onto the market after the initial one—the current better panel is actually a compromise that loses some pixels to rounded corners, which is fine but IMO not “pay $270+tax+shipping for the upgrade” fine. Looking at the specs of the screens, I’m almost sure that both the original 2256×1504 one and the rounded-corners 2880×1920 one are actually identical to the ones in the Microsoft Surface (changed to a matte finish), so it’s Microsoft footing the custom-screen bill in this case. (I’ve heard we’re not getting small phones for a similar reason: you would need to sell a lot of phones to justify a new screen, and all the small-phone people will still begrudgingly buy a large one if there are no small ones.)
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  The big selling point of the higher tier FW13 screen option is that it’s conducive to 2x/200% UI scaling, which is surprisingly rare in x86 laptops and is desirable under Linux. Fractional scaling displays technically work but have some notable quirks, where 2x scaling has worked flawlessly for a long time.
masklinn 1y ago
I’m pretty sure it’s just that 16:9 are so ubiquitous they’re by far the cheapest option. Hell, Apple shipping millions of 4:3 should keep them reasonable affordable. Same with 16:10 back when those were still a thing (because of the notch Apple now uses 9:5.85 displays to retain a rectangular 16:10 fullscreen).

ginko 1y ago

No one asked for a 16:9 thinkpad though.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
16:9 displays were inevitable due to the economies of scale form the TV industry. It's a shame they had to be 1366x768 for so long. I remember many eons ago in the last 2000s to early 2010s when I wanted a 16:10 monitor for my PC and the price difference between 1920x1080 and 1920x1200 or between 2560x1440 and 2560x1600 was massive, that it made no sense to get the few extra vertical pixels of the 16:10 unless you were loaded and money was no issue. Even 4k 16:9 monitors a few years after launch, were cheaper than 16:10 2560x1600 ones which have already been on the market far longer. Crazy.
- 4ad 1y ago
  I call BS on that, as Macbooks somehow always kept being 16:10. In fact you could easily buy 16:10 panels, I know because for many years I upgraded old 16:10 Thinkpads with modern displays.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    Nothing what I said is BS, the price differences on external 16:10 monitors were significantly more expensive than 16:9 ones. Look it up. > old 16:10 Thinkpads with modern displays. Yes you're talking about the really old 16:10 ones from the mid to late 2000s, right before they switched to 16:9 cause they were cheaper to make due to the HD TV era. Add then today they switched back to 16:10. So no, it's no BS that scale allows for much cheaper products, but Apple could stick to 16:10 since they never catered to cheap and it would probably cost them more in SW dev and tooling to reengineer their OS GUI and chassis for 16:9 than to keep the production lines as is since their product line back then had like 3 laptops total. And maybe start with good faith before screaming BS. No need to be rude just because people have different opinions and experiences than you.
    - 1y ago

wpm 1y ago

The Framework keyboard is precisely why I haven’t bought one. The mixed height arrow key thing sucked on the touchbar MacBook Pros, they suck on FWs too. The second the 13 gets a normal inverted T, I buy one. In the meantime, I’m waiting on a display converter board to show up from China so I can install a modernish 1440p display in my T420.

mananaysiempre 1y ago
The “normal” inverted T is just another variation of the same suckage as far as I’m concerned (slightly worse, if anything, because I tend to wear away the paint—and eventually plastic—on a tiny left-arrow key faster than on a normal one). Look at the photos in TFA[1] for how good arrow keys are arranged. [1] e.g. https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg (the presence of a Break key almost makes me cry)
- normie3000 1y ago
  > https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg Doesn't this photo show an inverted T?
  - notpushkin 1y ago
    I think a “normal” inverted T consists of half-height keys (i.e. used on most current laptops). ThinkPads used slightly higher arrow keys for a while, not sure about now.
    - layer8 1y ago
      A normal inverted T is what is on a standard desktop PC keyboard: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Arrow_keys.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Arrow_ke... While half-height arrow keys have become common on laptops, that's probably not what GP (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44769440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44769440) meant by "normal". ThinkPads generally use slightly smaller keys for the arrow keys, but still significantly taller than half-height, like for example here: https://p3-ofp.static.pub/ShareResource/560x450/SSNP/4Y40X49493/4Y40X49493-560x450-01.8449bcbf5e5aa641.png https://p3-ofp.static.pub/ShareResource/560x450/SSNP/4Y40X49... What people really want is a full-height inverted T like on this Lenovo gaming laptop: https://p1-ofp.static.pub//fes/cms/2025/05/21/uft1eixrszorypehb4ern6ol5r2lur937054.png https://p1-ofp.static.pub//fes/cms/2025/05/21/uft1eixrszoryp...

nrp 1y ago

We have 1.5mm key travel, the keyboard is replaceable, and the vast majority of our keyboard artwork options don’t have a Copilot logo.

mananaysiempre 1y ago
All true. My previous laptop was a 2014 MBP, and the two basically feel the same. I’d say the MBP’s layout is marginally worse because of the stupid power key and the half-size left and right arrows, and of course the MBP’s construction makes your life hell if you spill liquid on the keyboard and need to replace it. (Framework’s prohibition on freight forwarding makes my life difficult in the same situation, but that’s a me problem—I should have taken the hint that I wasn’t wanted when I was jumping through hoops to buy it in the first place.) It’s not a bad keyboard. As far as laptops of the last decade go, it’s even a good one. But the up/down arrows sucked on the MBP and they (though not left/right) suck on the FW13, I expect(?) because a rectangular keyboard ends up cheaper than one with protruding arrows. Furthermore, my (grandparent) comment was about how vertical shrinkage made the keyboard smaller but the FW13’s taller screen didn’t restore the missing keys, and if half-size up/down arrows just suck to use, Home/End/PgUp/PgDn hidden behind Fn suck to a Pavlovian extent: I didn’t realize how much the MBP trained me out of using them before I had to use an older ThinkPad for a bit that had them on separate keys. I won’t even mention Ctrl-Break except to look in its direction wistfully. Finally, the Copilot key is of course a distraction. I don’t know what it actually sends on those keyboards, but if I can map that to Compose I couldn’t care less about what’s drawn on it. It’s just sad that, after everything, that distraction is what ended up being the first substantial change to the FW13’s keyboard.
nh2 1y ago
Please just give us an option to buy a 7 row Thinkpad keyboard with Trackpoint. There are talented keyboard makers like Tex that already pulled this off, making better hardware than Lenovo itself, and you could instantaneously win most Thinkpad users over, likely permanently.
dogcow 1y ago
Please offer a good TrackPoint keyboard. Please.

spankibalt 1y ago

Turn the ThinkPad X12 into a modernized and more maintainable HP ZBook x2 G4, complete with EMR stylus. Keep the size or make it even smaller. Offer a bunch of first-rate keyboard options. For both machine's got the best form factor in that size-class there is: the detachable, the evolution of the convertible of yesteryear. It's really not hard to figure out. Whatcha get instead? Garbage like silly rolling-display laptops. Or even worse, The Homer of the laptop world: these bizarre contraptions with two or three foldout displays. It's just missing a cup holder. Framework borked it here as well. I just don't understand why you waste time, energy and money on developing and building a substandard machine (Framework 12) in an outdated form factor.