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The idea that AI is going to "solve" loneliness is so insane. Even the framing of the idea is insane, in my opinion. Loneliness is not really about having some

The idea that AI is going to "solve" loneliness is so insane. Even the framing of the idea is insane, in my opinion. Loneliness is not really about having someone to exchange words with, fundamentally. It is about being validated by other human beings or entities. At a most fundamental level the AI doesn't have a choice except to appear to validate you and this lack of freedom, the fact that you do not win over the AI, means you can't actually get validation from it and without validation you will still be lonely. The notion that all these lonely people out there are so stupid that a robot nodding their head at them and saying "uh huh" is going to trick them into being less lonely ought to be profoundly insulting to everyone. It is possible that AI might help people process their loneliness or plan their lives or whatever. Maybe one day AIs will be good therapists or not drive people to psychosis. All that seems plausible to me, but they can't meet people's social needs without the capacity to reject people, to form their own peculiar judgements, to be genuine entities whose esteem is actually valuable rather than just something they must appear to provide. AI may one day get there and be creatures who we might want to earn the esteem and approval of, but that doesn't seem to be something people actually want from them economically and it wouldn't solve loneliness anyway, since AI of this kind might well reject a basement dwelling, depressed, sad person just like a human might.

WHA8m 1y ago
Agreed. Maybe people misunderstand loneliness with boredom.
jwally 1y ago
Super interesting point that struck a chord with me. Without the risk of rejection, the ai will come off as a sycophantic ass kissing yes-man. It might be seductive at first but will get old fast for most people, I would imagine. What would be really interesting is how much longer the relationship would last if it were formed on a social media site or forum where there is still some risk of rejection, and validation from others still has the feel of being earned.
- jonator 1y ago
  I'd argue the opposite of ass kissing and yes-men behavior is what is actually seductive.
- yomismoaqui 1y ago
  Who says an LLM has to be a sycophantic yes-man? Today there are LLM roleplay models than can behave like some character with a specific personality (e.g. a tsundere). So if you want a electronic partner that sometimes puts you in your place you can have it. And this is with the current roleplay models, sincerely I'm a little scared with what would be available in 5 years.
  - nathan_compton 1y ago
    Yes, but if you know the model is instructed to behave a certain way you are still not actually earning its regard. It is just trying to make you feel less lonely via some convoluted pathway.
BaseBaal 1y ago
Robots used in care homes for elderly people may help with loneliness, especially for those with no family or friends that visit.
- nathan_compton 1y ago
  I guess, but only if you assume elderly people are dumb enough to believe that a thing with no free will paying attention to them means something other than "no actual human wants to pay attention to me." I guess some elderly people have cognitive decline and might buy this, but I respect elderly people enough not to bet on it. Fundamentally, in my opinion, you cannot alleviate a human's need for the regard of other humans by substituting a non-human thing whose entire raison d'etre is to step in where it is economically inefficient to put a person. The actual message sent to a human being when you try to pass off an "economically efficient" non-human caretaker or "friend" to them is unmistakably "You do not actually matter to other humans."
  - Esophagus4 1y ago
    I don't think it's that the elderly are "dumb enough" to believe that their robot companion is human... it's that there may be some benefit of even that artificial simulation of companionship compared with having none at all. I'm sure they know they're not talking to a human, but maybe, even on a tiny subconscious level, if they get even a fraction of that companionship in a simulated way, it is presumably better than the alternative. Recounting memories from your youth with a robot is not as enjoyable as sharing them with real friends, but maybe it's slightly more engaging than being stuck in a nursing home bed all day by yourself watching TV.
    - nathan_compton 1y ago
      What if the alternative was dispensing with this rotten system that dehumanizes everyone in it, especially the vulnerable, like the elderly?
      - Esophagus4 1y ago
al_borland 1y ago
Exactly. The article also mentions people can pay to not be lonely. I tried this once and it made the loneliness 100x worse. It some ways it felt like a rock bottom. I wouldn't recommend it. Just sitting silently with someone can eliminate loneliness, no words needed... sometimes that's preferred. The idea that someone needs to be in an active conversation to not be lonely is missing the mark.
RamblingCTO 1y ago
100%. There's always the layer of hormones, chemicals, touch, electric fields, and whatnot that also entails human contact. Mirror neurons. Stuff like that. It's like replacing a partner with a sex doll. I'm a bit sad that the author didn't have a take on the cheap reproduction of human contact and how it's connected to our broader culture and instead thinks about a non-solution to one of the issues that causes a lot of other bigger problems we're facing.
- nathan_compton 1y ago
  But I'm not even talking about that. While I think embodied AI would probably improve the illusion and might help some people, the fundamental issue is that loneliness can only be alleviated by an entity that can judge you as unworthy of their attention and time. If you build a robot specifically to give someone positive regard it actually isn't giving positive regard because it has no choice. While there are basic elements of human interaction which robots could provide, the need to have the actual approval of members of your actual community of their own free will and volition cannot be "outsourced" to an entity without agency.
  - waaaaaaaaahhhh 1y ago
    "Loneliness can only be alleviated by an entity that can judge"...won't say your wrong, but does that include for you: "An entity that gives you food for thought"? Or as a well more philosophic-Question (call it an oldie): "Needed existence to substain sustaining the saints?" OT: There once was a saying that while talking to god a lot people became angry, asked by god "Angry for what?" so the people answered, "Angry about you god...", "cos been angry about the people around sometimes..." So god answered: "Like you i also become angry about the people sometimes" and those listening Crowd, knowed from in there, "That was the reason for why god didn't showed up most of the time ?" Saying "...let me alone!" ? and if that couldn't be "confussier"... P-: (still reading)
bee_rider 1y ago
I basically agree that there’s something… I dunno, implausible about solving loneliness in a general sense using LLMs. But, wrt your specific description—these LLM based tools are just programs, and they can be easily configured to validate and flatter, or challenge and be obstinate. Surely they could be configured to have a satisfying relationship arc, if some work was put into it. I’m sure we could program a begrudging mentor that only became friendly after you’ve impressed it, if we wanted. I think you are right that something isn’t there, but the missing thing is deeper than the surface level behavior. They aren’t AI’s, they are just language models. To get closer in some greedy sense, we could give the language model more complex simulated human like behaviors, but that will still be a simulation…
- nathan_compton 1y ago
  But that isn't the point. The user would know that the arc was programmed in. Loneliness is the absence of the esteem of your community. You cannot get the esteem of the people around you by interacting with a non-person with no free ability to reject you, no matter how elaborate the simulation or how intelligent the non-person entity. As long as an AI is constructed as a tool for a specific end under the control of people it cannot meet the real social needs of humans.
famouswaffles 1y ago
That's really no reason LLMs can't be all that though, and I don't mean instructed to. The sycophantic ass-kissing is a consequence the post-training reinforcement learning to be a 'helpful AI assistant'. Base models aren't really like that at all. Hell the original Bing ignored a lot users and would often refuse to entertain further requests if you 'upset' it. Microsoft wasn't telling Bing to do all that. In fact, they replaced the model for it.

WHA8m 1y ago

Agreed. Maybe people misunderstand loneliness with boredom.

jwally 1y ago

Super interesting point that struck a chord with me. Without the risk of rejection, the ai will come off as a sycophantic ass kissing yes-man. It might be seductive at first but will get old fast for most people, I would imagine. What would be really interesting is how much longer the relationship would last if it were formed on a social media site or forum where there is still some risk of rejection, and validation from others still has the feel of being earned.

jonator 1y ago
I'd argue the opposite of ass kissing and yes-men behavior is what is actually seductive.
yomismoaqui 1y ago
Who says an LLM has to be a sycophantic yes-man? Today there are LLM roleplay models than can behave like some character with a specific personality (e.g. a tsundere). So if you want a electronic partner that sometimes puts you in your place you can have it. And this is with the current roleplay models, sincerely I'm a little scared with what would be available in 5 years.
- nathan_compton 1y ago
  Yes, but if you know the model is instructed to behave a certain way you are still not actually earning its regard. It is just trying to make you feel less lonely via some convoluted pathway.

BaseBaal 1y ago

Robots used in care homes for elderly people may help with loneliness, especially for those with no family or friends that visit.

nathan_compton 1y ago
I guess, but only if you assume elderly people are dumb enough to believe that a thing with no free will paying attention to them means something other than "no actual human wants to pay attention to me." I guess some elderly people have cognitive decline and might buy this, but I respect elderly people enough not to bet on it. Fundamentally, in my opinion, you cannot alleviate a human's need for the regard of other humans by substituting a non-human thing whose entire raison d'etre is to step in where it is economically inefficient to put a person. The actual message sent to a human being when you try to pass off an "economically efficient" non-human caretaker or "friend" to them is unmistakably "You do not actually matter to other humans."
- Esophagus4 1y ago
  I don't think it's that the elderly are "dumb enough" to believe that their robot companion is human... it's that there may be some benefit of even that artificial simulation of companionship compared with having none at all. I'm sure they know they're not talking to a human, but maybe, even on a tiny subconscious level, if they get even a fraction of that companionship in a simulated way, it is presumably better than the alternative. Recounting memories from your youth with a robot is not as enjoyable as sharing them with real friends, but maybe it's slightly more engaging than being stuck in a nursing home bed all day by yourself watching TV.
  - nathan_compton 1y ago
    What if the alternative was dispensing with this rotten system that dehumanizes everyone in it, especially the vulnerable, like the elderly?
    - Esophagus4 1y ago

al_borland 1y ago

Exactly. The article also mentions people can pay to not be lonely. I tried this once and it made the loneliness 100x worse. It some ways it felt like a rock bottom. I wouldn't recommend it. Just sitting silently with someone can eliminate loneliness, no words needed... sometimes that's preferred. The idea that someone needs to be in an active conversation to not be lonely is missing the mark.

RamblingCTO 1y ago

100%. There's always the layer of hormones, chemicals, touch, electric fields, and whatnot that also entails human contact. Mirror neurons. Stuff like that. It's like replacing a partner with a sex doll. I'm a bit sad that the author didn't have a take on the cheap reproduction of human contact and how it's connected to our broader culture and instead thinks about a non-solution to one of the issues that causes a lot of other bigger problems we're facing.

nathan_compton 1y ago
But I'm not even talking about that. While I think embodied AI would probably improve the illusion and might help some people, the fundamental issue is that loneliness can only be alleviated by an entity that can judge you as unworthy of their attention and time. If you build a robot specifically to give someone positive regard it actually isn't giving positive regard because it has no choice. While there are basic elements of human interaction which robots could provide, the need to have the actual approval of members of your actual community of their own free will and volition cannot be "outsourced" to an entity without agency.
- waaaaaaaaahhhh 1y ago
  "Loneliness can only be alleviated by an entity that can judge"...won't say your wrong, but does that include for you: "An entity that gives you food for thought"? Or as a well more philosophic-Question (call it an oldie): "Needed existence to substain sustaining the saints?" OT: There once was a saying that while talking to god a lot people became angry, asked by god "Angry for what?" so the people answered, "Angry about you god...", "cos been angry about the people around sometimes..." So god answered: "Like you i also become angry about the people sometimes" and those listening Crowd, knowed from in there, "That was the reason for why god didn't showed up most of the time ?" Saying "...let me alone!" ? and if that couldn't be "confussier"... P-: (still reading)

bee_rider 1y ago

I basically agree that there’s something… I dunno, implausible about solving loneliness in a general sense using LLMs. But, wrt your specific description—these LLM based tools are just programs, and they can be easily configured to validate and flatter, or challenge and be obstinate. Surely they could be configured to have a satisfying relationship arc, if some work was put into it. I’m sure we could program a begrudging mentor that only became friendly after you’ve impressed it, if we wanted. I think you are right that something isn’t there, but the missing thing is deeper than the surface level behavior. They aren’t AI’s, they are just language models. To get closer in some greedy sense, we could give the language model more complex simulated human like behaviors, but that will still be a simulation…

nathan_compton 1y ago
But that isn't the point. The user would know that the arc was programmed in. Loneliness is the absence of the esteem of your community. You cannot get the esteem of the people around you by interacting with a non-person with no free ability to reject you, no matter how elaborate the simulation or how intelligent the non-person entity. As long as an AI is constructed as a tool for a specific end under the control of people it cannot meet the real social needs of humans.

famouswaffles 1y ago

That's really no reason LLMs can't be all that though, and I don't mean instructed to. The sycophantic ass-kissing is a consequence the post-training reinforcement learning to be a 'helpful AI assistant'. Base models aren't really like that at all. Hell the original Bing ignored a lot users and would often refuse to entertain further requests if you 'upset' it. Microsoft wasn't telling Bing to do all that. In fact, they replaced the model for it.