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> I’ve been wondering recently what impact banning social media would have on birth rates. I’m confident it would be positive The obsession with their birth ra

> I’ve been wondering recently what impact banning social media would have on birth rates. I’m confident it would be positive The obsession with their birth rates is one of the creepy reasons why young people don't want to go out.

furyofantares 1y ago
> The obsession with their birth rates is one of the creepy reasons why young people don't want to go out. I'm a bit confused here, as someone who doesn't go out and never did. Do young people get accosted about generational birth rates if they go out?
- nathan_compton 1y ago
  I think public discussion of whether you are having "enough" sex and "enough" babies to satisfy some oligarch or technocrat's vision of how the world should be, while not specifically deterring people going out, contributes to a general gross vibe which I could imagine doesn't help people want to get out there and mingle. But I do think this is overstated. I have a small number of children and the main reason that we don't have more is that its incredibly expensive over the course of a lifetime to raise a child who isn't going to be some wage slave somewhere or worse, end up in poverty and treated like shit by the world. If our society was genuinely dedicated to allowing a slower pace of life and ensuring the unconditional dignity of human beings, we'd probably have more kids, but having more now feels like pitching them into the meat grinder.
  - billy99k 1y ago
    The main discussion is on replacement rates. If this get too low, civilization eventually collapses. It's not really a 'vision' and more like the end of humanity.
    - slt2021 1y ago
      no, it doesn't. With the labor productivity and automation, it is not obvious we need to maintain the current population, especially because the current social contract seems to be working class being exploited by oligarchs, while their taxes go fund boomers' retirement and overseas wars
      - AlecSchueler 1y ago
        And don't forget that the constant growth mentality is causing widespread ecocide which will almost certainly bring an end to society anyway.
      - pantalaimon 1y ago
        How is it supposed to work when every working age person has two retirees to support?
        Modified3019 1y ago
        Probably like: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Kaelon https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Kaelon Just need to re-evaluate things once we hit post-scarcity.
        jfyi 1y ago
        I think I would not like to perform the ättestupa.
        slt2021 1y ago
        the Boomers need to pull themselves by their bootstraps (c)
    - olddustytrail 1y ago
      This seems like a self correcting problem. In the past, women who didn't really want children didn't have a great deal of choice, particularly if they wanted to follow any kind of socially acceptable life. It was considered a failure to many if they didn't get a husband and children. Therefore there was no particular evolutionary pressure to select for women who actually had a strong biological urge to have children. But there is now, so after a few generations you end up with mostly those women having children, that genetically passed on desire becomes more prominent, and birth rates increase again. Until overpopulation becomes a new version of the problem people thought it would be previously.
      - lotsofpulp 1y ago
        That is not how evolution and natural selection works. >Therefore there was no particular evolutionary pressure to select for women who actually had a strong biological urge to have children. It is possible to that a biological disposition to have children sufficient to outweigh other factors do not emerge in a sufficient timespan.
    - nathan_compton 1y ago
      This is as absurdly linear a vision of history as any traditional Marxist might conjure up. Society has a lot of feedback systems in place which make a total collapse sort of unusual. A slow down of technological progress while society re-allocates labor towards other ends seems like a much more reasonable outcome.
dpassens 1y ago
I assure you, as a young person, nobody has ever commented on my birth rate when I went out.
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  No one implied they would, but the thread you're commenting on literally begins with an abstract discussion about using the law to coerce you into having a more "positive" birth rate.
  - bandyaboot 1y ago
    So what is it that you’re saying is keeping younger people from getting out? Just the knowledge that there may be people out in the world with them who are creepily obsessing over their birth rate?
    - 1718627440 1y ago
      Already getting dopamine in other ways.
    - AlecSchueler 1y ago
      Apathy resulting from being treated and talked about like cattle, raised and bred to feed the machine of capitalism while they watch it destroy the world around them.
  - dpassens 1y ago
    But it doesn't, does it? For one, the question was merely whether we'd observe an increased birth rate, not whether that is a reason to pass such a law. Secondly, you're the one who's bringing up coercion. You can both not be on social media and not have kids. It's still your decision.
    - AlecSchueler 1y ago
      The comment I responded to was specifically talking about "banning social media" and their confidence this would have a "positive" impact on birth rates, despite the clear preferences of younger people. I'm "bringing up" coercion because I'm not sure how to describe such policies and intentions otherwise? The reason for it might not have been made explicit but we both understand what they were driving at and why they weren't "merely" asking the question of what effect a social media ban might have on chocolate sales or something equally arbitrary.
cosmic_cheese 1y ago
It’s my perception that’s there’s been a negative reaction to pressure on younger people to have kids for a while now. As a mid 30s millennial, it sure did feel weird back in my early 20s when older people from my rural hometown asked why I hadn’t found someone to marry and started a family yet. I had yet to even figure out who I was and how to be responsible, upstanding adult but somehow I’m supposed to take on a partner and N children too?! How does that make any sense? The chances of it ending in disaster of one sort or another are just too high, and that was obvious to me even in the midst of the naivety of a freshly minted adult. Flash forward to today, and yes I’d like to do those things but I’m now in so much better of a position to do so that it’s difficult to even express. I’m glad I didn’t succumb to the pressure.
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  Because early 20s is biologically the best age to have kids. You are at your most fertile, best chance for no complications and having healthy offspring, you still have pretty boundless energy to take care of them.
  - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    Sure, but that’s one of many factors to consider. Are the improved chances of healthy kids really worth it if it comes at greatly elevated risk of financial duress, where all that extra energy is spent working multiple jobs to keep a roof over everybody’s heads? Is it worth the risk of divorce when you or your spouse get a better feel for yourselves in your late 20s and figure out you’re not actually that well suited for each other? I’m sure that there are individuals who have all that sorted before their mid-20s, but that’s anything but a rule and nobody should feel pressured to make the leap at that age.
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      Yeah but the people who have kids in their early 20s are largely not people who worry about having life all figured out. They are more go with the flow types. There's something to be said for it. The best intended plans do not survive first contact with reality.
sureglymop 1y ago
As someone in their mid 20s, I agree with you. I think we're mostly more worried about our material conditions, having a future and a roof over our heads and surviving in the long term. I'm not even going to think about potentially having kids before I feel that those concerns are somewhat addressed.
- unstuck3958 1y ago
  ditto. I have talked about it before with someone who shared the opinion that falling birth rates is the end of the world, but to single that out is creepy indeed. I do understand that it can be seen as a symptom of decay, but when I them people on why exactly birth rates are so important, it does seem like they implied a sort of existential thesis where procreation is supposedly the end goal.

furyofantares 1y ago

> The obsession with their birth rates is one of the creepy reasons why young people don't want to go out. I'm a bit confused here, as someone who doesn't go out and never did. Do young people get accosted about generational birth rates if they go out?

nathan_compton 1y ago
I think public discussion of whether you are having "enough" sex and "enough" babies to satisfy some oligarch or technocrat's vision of how the world should be, while not specifically deterring people going out, contributes to a general gross vibe which I could imagine doesn't help people want to get out there and mingle. But I do think this is overstated. I have a small number of children and the main reason that we don't have more is that its incredibly expensive over the course of a lifetime to raise a child who isn't going to be some wage slave somewhere or worse, end up in poverty and treated like shit by the world. If our society was genuinely dedicated to allowing a slower pace of life and ensuring the unconditional dignity of human beings, we'd probably have more kids, but having more now feels like pitching them into the meat grinder.
- billy99k 1y ago
  The main discussion is on replacement rates. If this get too low, civilization eventually collapses. It's not really a 'vision' and more like the end of humanity.
  - slt2021 1y ago
    no, it doesn't. With the labor productivity and automation, it is not obvious we need to maintain the current population, especially because the current social contract seems to be working class being exploited by oligarchs, while their taxes go fund boomers' retirement and overseas wars
    - AlecSchueler 1y ago
      And don't forget that the constant growth mentality is causing widespread ecocide which will almost certainly bring an end to society anyway.
    - pantalaimon 1y ago
      How is it supposed to work when every working age person has two retirees to support?
      - Modified3019 1y ago
        Probably like: https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Kaelon https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Kaelon Just need to re-evaluate things once we hit post-scarcity.
        jfyi 1y ago
        I think I would not like to perform the ättestupa.
      - slt2021 1y ago
        the Boomers need to pull themselves by their bootstraps (c)
  - olddustytrail 1y ago
    This seems like a self correcting problem. In the past, women who didn't really want children didn't have a great deal of choice, particularly if they wanted to follow any kind of socially acceptable life. It was considered a failure to many if they didn't get a husband and children. Therefore there was no particular evolutionary pressure to select for women who actually had a strong biological urge to have children. But there is now, so after a few generations you end up with mostly those women having children, that genetically passed on desire becomes more prominent, and birth rates increase again. Until overpopulation becomes a new version of the problem people thought it would be previously.
    - lotsofpulp 1y ago
      That is not how evolution and natural selection works. >Therefore there was no particular evolutionary pressure to select for women who actually had a strong biological urge to have children. It is possible to that a biological disposition to have children sufficient to outweigh other factors do not emerge in a sufficient timespan.
  - nathan_compton 1y ago
    This is as absurdly linear a vision of history as any traditional Marxist might conjure up. Society has a lot of feedback systems in place which make a total collapse sort of unusual. A slow down of technological progress while society re-allocates labor towards other ends seems like a much more reasonable outcome.

dpassens 1y ago

I assure you, as a young person, nobody has ever commented on my birth rate when I went out.

AlecSchueler 1y ago
No one implied they would, but the thread you're commenting on literally begins with an abstract discussion about using the law to coerce you into having a more "positive" birth rate.
- bandyaboot 1y ago
  So what is it that you’re saying is keeping younger people from getting out? Just the knowledge that there may be people out in the world with them who are creepily obsessing over their birth rate?
  - 1718627440 1y ago
    Already getting dopamine in other ways.
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    Apathy resulting from being treated and talked about like cattle, raised and bred to feed the machine of capitalism while they watch it destroy the world around them.
- dpassens 1y ago
  But it doesn't, does it? For one, the question was merely whether we'd observe an increased birth rate, not whether that is a reason to pass such a law. Secondly, you're the one who's bringing up coercion. You can both not be on social media and not have kids. It's still your decision.
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    The comment I responded to was specifically talking about "banning social media" and their confidence this would have a "positive" impact on birth rates, despite the clear preferences of younger people. I'm "bringing up" coercion because I'm not sure how to describe such policies and intentions otherwise? The reason for it might not have been made explicit but we both understand what they were driving at and why they weren't "merely" asking the question of what effect a social media ban might have on chocolate sales or something equally arbitrary.

cosmic_cheese 1y ago

It’s my perception that’s there’s been a negative reaction to pressure on younger people to have kids for a while now. As a mid 30s millennial, it sure did feel weird back in my early 20s when older people from my rural hometown asked why I hadn’t found someone to marry and started a family yet. I had yet to even figure out who I was and how to be responsible, upstanding adult but somehow I’m supposed to take on a partner and N children too?! How does that make any sense? The chances of it ending in disaster of one sort or another are just too high, and that was obvious to me even in the midst of the naivety of a freshly minted adult. Flash forward to today, and yes I’d like to do those things but I’m now in so much better of a position to do so that it’s difficult to even express. I’m glad I didn’t succumb to the pressure.

SoftTalker 1y ago
Because early 20s is biologically the best age to have kids. You are at your most fertile, best chance for no complications and having healthy offspring, you still have pretty boundless energy to take care of them.
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  Sure, but that’s one of many factors to consider. Are the improved chances of healthy kids really worth it if it comes at greatly elevated risk of financial duress, where all that extra energy is spent working multiple jobs to keep a roof over everybody’s heads? Is it worth the risk of divorce when you or your spouse get a better feel for yourselves in your late 20s and figure out you’re not actually that well suited for each other? I’m sure that there are individuals who have all that sorted before their mid-20s, but that’s anything but a rule and nobody should feel pressured to make the leap at that age.
  - SoftTalker 1y ago
    Yeah but the people who have kids in their early 20s are largely not people who worry about having life all figured out. They are more go with the flow types. There's something to be said for it. The best intended plans do not survive first contact with reality.

sureglymop 1y ago

As someone in their mid 20s, I agree with you. I think we're mostly more worried about our material conditions, having a future and a roof over our heads and surviving in the long term. I'm not even going to think about potentially having kids before I feel that those concerns are somewhat addressed.

unstuck3958 1y ago
ditto. I have talked about it before with someone who shared the opinion that falling birth rates is the end of the world, but to single that out is creepy indeed. I do understand that it can be seen as a symptom of decay, but when I them people on why exactly birth rates are so important, it does seem like they implied a sort of existential thesis where procreation is supposedly the end goal.