4 ms·

I'm in Europe. It's not even close to being worse than the US on that front. Places like the Fraunhofer Institute and the Max Planck Institute are perpetually

I'm in Europe. It's not even close to being worse than the US on that front. Places like the Fraunhofer Institute and the Max Planck Institute are perpetually well-funded, and are largely unaffected by politics. Good places to do research.

breppp 1y ago
Wouldn't get to this because in Germany such a demonstration would be dispersed far earlier, not to mention the nazi symbolism displayed in UCLA
- A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
  In any case, penalties would apply to the perpetrators themselves, as individuals. I've never heard of a case where the institution itself would suffer from a significant funding cut, to say nothing of a very sudden funding collapse.
  - breppp 1y ago
    That could be the case, but free speech is much more sacred in the United States than in Germany. For example the anti-swastika or anti-cult laws, which I am not against, it's just a different approach to something like this happening
    - A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
      > but free speech is much more sacred in the United States than in Germany. In the abstract. In actual practice, it's not clear, and you could even build quite a strong case for the opposite view. "Cancellation" over mere words has been commonplace for over ten years, and is much more common to the US than to Europe. And as for laws... What just happened to Tao and UCLA has, to the best of my knowledge, never taken place in Europe in recent decades.
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>Fraunhofer Institute and the Max Planck Institute are perpetually well-funded, and are largely unaffected by politics Oh, so I can freely go up against the German government's policies and have my career in academia unaffected and keep my government funding? I lived in Germany and don't remember people or organisations ever being able to break government rules with no consequences (unless they had high friends in politics). Something smells here.
- davrosthedalek 1y ago
  As long as you are not a "Beamte", i.e. a special case of state employee, yes.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    Sorry I don't buy it. Which examples are there of academics going against the government policies and still keeping their jobs and funds? I lived in Germany and the moment you don't do what the government says you get the full shaft. Nobody let's you rebel against the government with no consequences, not in US, not in Germany, not in UK, nowhere. People painting Germany like a bastion of free speech are coping hard. Only if you consider free speech doing and saying only what the government says.
    - A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
      It's hard to prove a negative. Can you show us an example of anything like what's happening at UCLA (collective punishment of an entire institution) or an example of an individual professor being harshly penalized or sanctioned for expressing personal political opinions?
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        Don't spin this around, what I asked you is not a negative. People here argued that the US is fascist because in academia you can't get away with breaking governments rules getting you defunded and pointing at Germany for being superior in this regard. So then I asked for proof that in other countries you can get away in academia with breaking the government's rules and not get defunded. It really is that simple.
buyucu 1y ago
As a German government funded scientist, is it safe to criticise Israel or use the 'G' word for what Israel is doing? Or would they do the same thing they did to Helen Fares?

breppp 1y ago

Wouldn't get to this because in Germany such a demonstration would be dispersed far earlier, not to mention the nazi symbolism displayed in UCLA

A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
In any case, penalties would apply to the perpetrators themselves, as individuals. I've never heard of a case where the institution itself would suffer from a significant funding cut, to say nothing of a very sudden funding collapse.
- breppp 1y ago
  That could be the case, but free speech is much more sacred in the United States than in Germany. For example the anti-swastika or anti-cult laws, which I am not against, it's just a different approach to something like this happening
  - A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
    > but free speech is much more sacred in the United States than in Germany. In the abstract. In actual practice, it's not clear, and you could even build quite a strong case for the opposite view. "Cancellation" over mere words has been commonplace for over ten years, and is much more common to the US than to Europe. And as for laws... What just happened to Tao and UCLA has, to the best of my knowledge, never taken place in Europe in recent decades.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago

>Fraunhofer Institute and the Max Planck Institute are perpetually well-funded, and are largely unaffected by politics Oh, so I can freely go up against the German government's policies and have my career in academia unaffected and keep my government funding? I lived in Germany and don't remember people or organisations ever being able to break government rules with no consequences (unless they had high friends in politics). Something smells here.

davrosthedalek 1y ago
As long as you are not a "Beamte", i.e. a special case of state employee, yes.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  Sorry I don't buy it. Which examples are there of academics going against the government policies and still keeping their jobs and funds? I lived in Germany and the moment you don't do what the government says you get the full shaft. Nobody let's you rebel against the government with no consequences, not in US, not in Germany, not in UK, nowhere. People painting Germany like a bastion of free speech are coping hard. Only if you consider free speech doing and saying only what the government says.
  - A_D_E_P_T 1y ago
    It's hard to prove a negative. Can you show us an example of anything like what's happening at UCLA (collective punishment of an entire institution) or an example of an individual professor being harshly penalized or sanctioned for expressing personal political opinions?
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      Don't spin this around, what I asked you is not a negative. People here argued that the US is fascist because in academia you can't get away with breaking governments rules getting you defunded and pointing at Germany for being superior in this regard. So then I asked for proof that in other countries you can get away in academia with breaking the government's rules and not get defunded. It really is that simple.

buyucu 1y ago

As a German government funded scientist, is it safe to criticise Israel or use the 'G' word for what Israel is doing? Or would they do the same thing they did to Helen Fares?