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> In nearly every case of RTO, there was no recorded dip in productivity associated with the move to remote work. I've seen this repeated often, and I've never

> In nearly every case of RTO, there was no recorded dip in productivity associated with the move to remote work. I've seen this repeated often, and I've never seen any convincing evidence to support it. The studies I have seen always focus on "task-based" roles, where productivity is easily measured and everything is very well-defined. Think call center employees, stuff like that, where they're simply measuring call volumes. But execs are clearly more worried about the general "disattachment" people have with their job when they're working remotely, and they're worried about reductions in innovation and collaborative idea generation. Those kinds of concerns are much more difficult to measure in a short term study, but I think they're very valid. Since those things are difficult to measure, I'm not saying there is good evidence one way or the other on remote work's effect on those things. I am saying I think it's disingenuous and just a bad argument to say remote work has no impact on productivity.

msgodel 1y ago
>general "disattachment" people have with their job At least for me this is a consequence of the instability, extracurricular demands from my employer (signaling our relationship is not important to them) and deterioration in the labor market making my career less of a priority than my side projects (as at least in my mind the expected long term payout has dropped.) Being forced to commute would only exacerbate the situation.
no_wizard 1y ago
BLS did a great job here https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-13/remote-work-productivity.htm https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-13/remote-work-productiv...
- hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
  Everything in that report basically confirms what I was saying. Most importantly, it looks primarily at the data from 2019-2022. Most execs (and many have said this publicly) are not that concerned about the short-term impacts on productivity. Indeed, many have argued that a good reason things were able to transition relatively smoothly during the pandemic is all the personal and professional networks and workflows already existed. But that study can obviously not measure the longer term impacts on overall competitiveness. And again, since I'm talking about longer term impacts, no study that only took place from 2019-2022 could measure these effects. But I think it's important to acknowledge that, rather than just leaning on the "See! Studies prove remote work doesn't hurt productivity!" argument, which is an invalid interpretation IMO.
  - intended 1y ago
    Not the previous poster - but the study which confirms that remote work is not bad, was one done at Stanford. The devil in the details was that Hybrid resulted in productivity gains - not remote.
    - hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
      Do you have a link to that, I'd be interested to see their methodology. That confirms my experience. Even before the pandemic, I would often work from home one or two days a week when I needed to be in "heads down" mode and just knock shit out. It was more efficient for me because there were fewer distractions and it was easier for me to get in the zone. But then I still had plenty of time for in-person collaboration with my colleagues.
      - intended 1y ago
        Ugh. I feel bad sharing this, because I am a proponent of Remote. https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2024/06/hybrid-work-is-a-win-win-win-for-companies-workers https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2024/06/hybrid-work-is-a-w... this should have a link. Also a correction - it showed increased retention rates, but no change in productivity.
  - ghaff 1y ago
    From personal observation, we were at a point in the technology cycle--networks/Zoom et al./etc.--where people were able to work remotely in many cases. Indeed, some organizations I'm involved with now hold at least some meetings remotely rather than spending half a day or more trudging somewhere for a meeting that takes half a day or more. On the other hand, I felt very disconnected at work latterly with a larger group and mostly kept up tighter connections with people I already knew.
  - esseph 1y ago
    What about all of us that were already working remotely for a decade or more before COVID? Didn't seem to be a problem then.
  - 1y ago
spwa4 1y ago
And you have never seen people on the job showing disattachment to their job? Wow. Go to any cafe, any school, any McDonalds, or any restaurant not run by a family that owns only one restaurant. And even those are havens of dedication and inspiration compared to the average government office. More general, look up the "bullshit jobs" phenomenon.
- hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
  > And you have never seen people on the job showing disattachment to their job. I made no such argument.
  - ryandrake 1y ago
    But the "execs" you write about are making the argument that "disattachment" is a more outsized problem for remote employees vs. onsite employees. Otherwise, they wouldn't have brought it up in the context of why these policies are happening.
ivanovm 1y ago
> In nearly every case of RTO, there was no recorded dip in productivity associated with the move to remote work. I am extremely skeptical of this. On the contrary there is a mountain of direct evidence that people barely work when working from home. People have been openly bragging both on the internet and in person about how they do laundry and watch netflix and mow their lawns while looking productive All you need to do is look at the crowds in the park or lines at the grocery store on any given friday to gauge how much work is being done on wfh days
- pdimitar 1y ago
  And I am extremely skeptical of your "direct evidence" (source?). Most jobs are not measurable, they are more like N amount of employees collectively moving a target / goal. And just like in school projects there are the lazies of course, but again, direct measurability is mostly an illusion sold by consultants that get sweet money by lying to executives and telling them what they want to hear. Consider that you might be in the bubble of yes-people. Work from home allowed many people to find their exact productive schedule, motivators and rhythm. But we can't have that, 8h or leave!

msgodel 1y ago

>general "disattachment" people have with their job At least for me this is a consequence of the instability, extracurricular demands from my employer (signaling our relationship is not important to them) and deterioration in the labor market making my career less of a priority than my side projects (as at least in my mind the expected long term payout has dropped.) Being forced to commute would only exacerbate the situation.

no_wizard 1y ago

BLS did a great job here https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-13/remote-work-productivity.htm https://www.bls.gov/opub/btn/volume-13/remote-work-productiv...

hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
Everything in that report basically confirms what I was saying. Most importantly, it looks primarily at the data from 2019-2022. Most execs (and many have said this publicly) are not that concerned about the short-term impacts on productivity. Indeed, many have argued that a good reason things were able to transition relatively smoothly during the pandemic is all the personal and professional networks and workflows already existed. But that study can obviously not measure the longer term impacts on overall competitiveness. And again, since I'm talking about longer term impacts, no study that only took place from 2019-2022 could measure these effects. But I think it's important to acknowledge that, rather than just leaning on the "See! Studies prove remote work doesn't hurt productivity!" argument, which is an invalid interpretation IMO.
- intended 1y ago
  Not the previous poster - but the study which confirms that remote work is not bad, was one done at Stanford. The devil in the details was that Hybrid resulted in productivity gains - not remote.
  - hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
    Do you have a link to that, I'd be interested to see their methodology. That confirms my experience. Even before the pandemic, I would often work from home one or two days a week when I needed to be in "heads down" mode and just knock shit out. It was more efficient for me because there were fewer distractions and it was easier for me to get in the zone. But then I still had plenty of time for in-person collaboration with my colleagues.
    - intended 1y ago
      Ugh. I feel bad sharing this, because I am a proponent of Remote. https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2024/06/hybrid-work-is-a-win-win-win-for-companies-workers https://news.stanford.edu/stories/2024/06/hybrid-work-is-a-w... this should have a link. Also a correction - it showed increased retention rates, but no change in productivity.
- ghaff 1y ago
  From personal observation, we were at a point in the technology cycle--networks/Zoom et al./etc.--where people were able to work remotely in many cases. Indeed, some organizations I'm involved with now hold at least some meetings remotely rather than spending half a day or more trudging somewhere for a meeting that takes half a day or more. On the other hand, I felt very disconnected at work latterly with a larger group and mostly kept up tighter connections with people I already knew.
- esseph 1y ago
  What about all of us that were already working remotely for a decade or more before COVID? Didn't seem to be a problem then.
- 1y ago

spwa4 1y ago

And you have never seen people on the job showing disattachment to their job? Wow. Go to any cafe, any school, any McDonalds, or any restaurant not run by a family that owns only one restaurant. And even those are havens of dedication and inspiration compared to the average government office. More general, look up the "bullshit jobs" phenomenon.

hn_throwaway_99 1y ago
> And you have never seen people on the job showing disattachment to their job. I made no such argument.
- ryandrake 1y ago
  But the "execs" you write about are making the argument that "disattachment" is a more outsized problem for remote employees vs. onsite employees. Otherwise, they wouldn't have brought it up in the context of why these policies are happening.

ivanovm 1y ago

> In nearly every case of RTO, there was no recorded dip in productivity associated with the move to remote work. I am extremely skeptical of this. On the contrary there is a mountain of direct evidence that people barely work when working from home. People have been openly bragging both on the internet and in person about how they do laundry and watch netflix and mow their lawns while looking productive All you need to do is look at the crowds in the park or lines at the grocery store on any given friday to gauge how much work is being done on wfh days

pdimitar 1y ago
And I am extremely skeptical of your "direct evidence" (source?). Most jobs are not measurable, they are more like N amount of employees collectively moving a target / goal. And just like in school projects there are the lazies of course, but again, direct measurability is mostly an illusion sold by consultants that get sweet money by lying to executives and telling them what they want to hear. Consider that you might be in the bubble of yes-people. Work from home allowed many people to find their exact productive schedule, motivators and rhythm. But we can't have that, 8h or leave!