4 ms·

> "I've worked with fantastic engineers from Argentina, Poland, Ukraine, etc. and since everyone is on Zoom anyway, them being remote makes no difference". If

> "I've worked with fantastic engineers from Argentina, Poland, Ukraine, etc. and since everyone is on Zoom anyway, them being remote makes no difference". If so, why do companies constantly demand increases to the H1B quota? Why do you need to bring developers into the US as H1B and all we're doing is Zoom meetings anyways?

monster_truck 1y ago
Charitably, because the developers they wish to hire want to be in the US. Uncharitably, because it's an excellent form of leverage and control
esseph 1y ago
Leverage. If they get fired they get shipped right back to their home country. They can abuse the hell out of them, make them work exceptionally long hours or under insane pressure and demands, and absolutely get away with it because the employee has extremely little recourse. They can't complain.
- zeroCalories 1y ago
  I don't think this is entirely true. Generally the positions in low cost areas are low-pressure work. Infra, internal tools, etc. You still want your top talent nearby and in office.
  - esseph 1y ago
    We're talking about H1-B tech workers. And infrastructure is low pressure? Damn I wish my blood pressure knew.
    - zeroCalories 1y ago
      Yes, top talent at these companies include h1b. And yes, infra is low pressure. If the engineers don't do an amazing job, or the timeline slips a little, it's a minor hiccup. If your product is mediocre, or ships late, you risk losing everything. You don't need top talent for the former, you do for the later. And you prefer to have top talent working next door, for various reasons.
      - esseph 1y ago
        When infrastructure automation goes sideways at a large company, especially a large company with tens/hundreds of thousands of VMs goes sideways, or large network infrastructure changes, it is not a fun day. Millions in damage can happen very quickly, and not even from the tech outage, but potentially loss of Operational Technology for Real Businesses and Orgs that do things. Think about chemical manufacturers, or large manufacturing plants. Think about shipping ports and airlines, and railways. Think about Internet Service Providers, hell - think about Starlink, they were just offline for a botched infrastructure change. I'd say that had some major impact around the world. Infrastructure is not about managing an App, it could be about managing thousands or tens of thousands of apps, and potentially for decades. So yeah, sure. You're right. You don't need talent to run infrastructure, I guess. Millions in damages can happen very quickly though, so, maybe... Think about it. I know a lot of software engineers that I wouldn't trust to run my infrastructure changes.
        zeroCalories 1y ago
        Sorry but you are vastly overestimating how difficult infrastructure is in 2025, and how much difference you'll see between a high cost engineer and a low cost engineer. These are not areas that companies are competing on.
        esseph 1y ago
        You're misunderstanding in several ways. MANY of the H1-Bs in the US workforce are not super talented. What they are is cheap and won't say no to mistreatment. The system is being massively abused, and has been for a very long time. Second, you think I'm talking about app infrastructure. For like one app. I'm talking about infrastructure changes that risk bank transactions. That shut down shipping ports, or prevent cross-country train movement. I'm talking about infrastructure management that when it goes sideways, billions of dollars of goods are stuck in port and the stock market starts getting worried. I'm talking about infrastructure changes for oceanic network equipment. Most people aren't dealing with that, but many are. Also if you don't think inter-industry competition includes labor cost and efficiency, then I don't even know why we're having this discussion.

monster_truck 1y ago

Charitably, because the developers they wish to hire want to be in the US. Uncharitably, because it's an excellent form of leverage and control

esseph 1y ago

Leverage. If they get fired they get shipped right back to their home country. They can abuse the hell out of them, make them work exceptionally long hours or under insane pressure and demands, and absolutely get away with it because the employee has extremely little recourse. They can't complain.

zeroCalories 1y ago
I don't think this is entirely true. Generally the positions in low cost areas are low-pressure work. Infra, internal tools, etc. You still want your top talent nearby and in office.
- esseph 1y ago
  We're talking about H1-B tech workers. And infrastructure is low pressure? Damn I wish my blood pressure knew.
  - zeroCalories 1y ago
    Yes, top talent at these companies include h1b. And yes, infra is low pressure. If the engineers don't do an amazing job, or the timeline slips a little, it's a minor hiccup. If your product is mediocre, or ships late, you risk losing everything. You don't need top talent for the former, you do for the later. And you prefer to have top talent working next door, for various reasons.
    - esseph 1y ago
      When infrastructure automation goes sideways at a large company, especially a large company with tens/hundreds of thousands of VMs goes sideways, or large network infrastructure changes, it is not a fun day. Millions in damage can happen very quickly, and not even from the tech outage, but potentially loss of Operational Technology for Real Businesses and Orgs that do things. Think about chemical manufacturers, or large manufacturing plants. Think about shipping ports and airlines, and railways. Think about Internet Service Providers, hell - think about Starlink, they were just offline for a botched infrastructure change. I'd say that had some major impact around the world. Infrastructure is not about managing an App, it could be about managing thousands or tens of thousands of apps, and potentially for decades. So yeah, sure. You're right. You don't need talent to run infrastructure, I guess. Millions in damages can happen very quickly though, so, maybe... Think about it. I know a lot of software engineers that I wouldn't trust to run my infrastructure changes.
      - zeroCalories 1y ago
        Sorry but you are vastly overestimating how difficult infrastructure is in 2025, and how much difference you'll see between a high cost engineer and a low cost engineer. These are not areas that companies are competing on.
        esseph 1y ago
        You're misunderstanding in several ways. MANY of the H1-Bs in the US workforce are not super talented. What they are is cheap and won't say no to mistreatment. The system is being massively abused, and has been for a very long time. Second, you think I'm talking about app infrastructure. For like one app. I'm talking about infrastructure changes that risk bank transactions. That shut down shipping ports, or prevent cross-country train movement. I'm talking about infrastructure management that when it goes sideways, billions of dollars of goods are stuck in port and the stock market starts getting worried. I'm talking about infrastructure changes for oceanic network equipment. Most people aren't dealing with that, but many are. Also if you don't think inter-industry competition includes labor cost and efficiency, then I don't even know why we're having this discussion.