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I think the biggest flaw with higher education today is that we're pushing people into doing undergraduate degrees who are already well beyond coming out of sel

I think the biggest flaw with higher education today is that we're pushing people into doing undergraduate degrees who are already well beyond coming out of self learning from high school or other experiences.

jonhohle 1y ago
That’s one of the biggest problems? Not pushing people into higher educational programs with little societal or economic value but huge loads of debt?
- skeptrune 1y ago
  I think research and higher education does have value for the most part. It's undergrad that's really worthless and something people only do for the experience.
  - xp84 1y ago
    Indeed. I've long felt that most undergrad students would be better served by a typical college minus the formal classes. Basically dorms and all the other amenities found in a typical college campus, where you mainly gain life skills and mingle with other people your age. Because most people I met at an average 4-year school were there because it's a societal expectation among certain classes, it's less scary than just getting a job and figuring out life completely on your own, and it is 10x-100x easier to make friends at college than just "out in the world." Not on the list: to learn from college classes, which at an average school teach you less than you'd get from a $200 a year subscription to Great Courses Plus or Brilliant. Or free from Khan Academy. I know a few very special schools give undergrads access to brilliant minds in their field, but I also have been told that undergrads at those schools are mostly taught by grad students, so I'm not sure that Ivies provide a lot either, beyond the opportunity to hobnob with the legacies that will be running Goldman Sachs in 20 years.
  - psyklic 1y ago
    Undergrads who care about learning and research will take the most challenging classes, do research with professors, and surround themselves with other strong students who will push them. Even at top universities, very very few freshmen are capable of doing high-quality research immediately. They'd be better served learning the foundations inside and out with a cohort of similarly strong students to challenge them.
    - skeptrune 1y ago
      If you do research during your 4 year undergrad. You shouldn't have been undergrad. It's really that simple.
      - psyklic 1y ago
        I'm not sure that's a simple argument and can't imagine many would agree. Undergrads who do research generally aren't very good at research yet. A major reason is they either lack or don't fully understand the pre-reqs, which they progressively and cumulatively learn during undergrad. A student can be incredibly smart, but acquiring a strong rigorous math background will still take years.
        skeptrune 1y ago
        Working on that skill and ability is the entire point of postgrad. If those are the skills you're working on then you should be in a postgrad program.
        psyklic 1y ago
        If you don't know the foundations well, you don't belong in a postgrad program. That's the reality and how it currently works. Undergrad teaches you those foundations. Anyone can try doing research, even undergrads who half-know the foundations. However, trying research doesn't mean you have the background to do great research or to succeed in a postgrad program.
- franga2000 1y ago
  The debt part is just a US thing, but the rest of us still have the other problems.
  - globalnode 1y ago
    australia copied the US in that regard. they used to say we were the 51st state but i dont even think we qualify as that... a territory perhaps?
    - strken 1y ago
      Australia's debt is in the form of HECS/HELP. It's indexed to inflation, and integrated into the tax system such that it's only repaid on income over a minimum threshold. The first threshold is 1% of income above $56k. The last threshold is 10% of income above $166k. My understanding is that US student loans accrue interest at rates above inflation. They do have repayment plans based on income, but because the interest rate is higher than wage growth, the debt just keeps growing if you're on these plans. They also don't have progressive thresholds like we do and the repayments tend to be higher. Australia has a similar but less severe problem. Inflation and wage growth are closer together but they aren't the same. Still, the situation in the US seems worse.
  - WrongAssumption 1y ago
    Not remotely true, and the US isn't even the worst. Students in the UK graduate with more debt.
contravariant 1y ago
To the right people a university education can be an asset rather than a barrier to entry.
conorbergin 1y ago
Very few people are too “advanced” to be challenged by a sufficiently difficult undergraduate degree, ridiculous thing to say imho, I went to a UK university this decade and I can give you a laundry list of issues more significant than “exceptional students being slowed down”.
- TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
  This woman is undoubtedly exceptional. But we don't know how exceptional, because she's an outlier, educated using different methods. We have no idea how many other people would achieve something similar with a similar background. Personally I'd bet almost anything it's a larger number than most people expect. I'd also be surprised if she doesn't already have a pretty solid background in undergrad-level math. The irony is she's actually more typical than not. Universities in the past were open to giving unusual talents special treatment. Historically, the idea that everyone must follow the same path on the same timetable is unusual.
  - ghssds 1y ago
    > everyone must follow the same path on the same timetable We are livestock for corporations, that's why.
Aurornis 1y ago
The number of high schoolers who might be ready to go into postgrad programs is very small. There is no way this could be the “biggest flaw” in higher education today because the number of people possibly impacted is so tiny. Although I think you’re striking at something that is a real problem with undergraduate degrees today: Many universities have become so watered down and softened that students spend the first 1-2 years doing what they should have been learning in high school. My friends who still teach at university constantly complain about students arriving for undergrad with very poor writing, communication, and listening skills.

jonhohle 1y ago

That’s one of the biggest problems? Not pushing people into higher educational programs with little societal or economic value but huge loads of debt?

skeptrune 1y ago
I think research and higher education does have value for the most part. It's undergrad that's really worthless and something people only do for the experience.
- xp84 1y ago
  Indeed. I've long felt that most undergrad students would be better served by a typical college minus the formal classes. Basically dorms and all the other amenities found in a typical college campus, where you mainly gain life skills and mingle with other people your age. Because most people I met at an average 4-year school were there because it's a societal expectation among certain classes, it's less scary than just getting a job and figuring out life completely on your own, and it is 10x-100x easier to make friends at college than just "out in the world." Not on the list: to learn from college classes, which at an average school teach you less than you'd get from a $200 a year subscription to Great Courses Plus or Brilliant. Or free from Khan Academy. I know a few very special schools give undergrads access to brilliant minds in their field, but I also have been told that undergrads at those schools are mostly taught by grad students, so I'm not sure that Ivies provide a lot either, beyond the opportunity to hobnob with the legacies that will be running Goldman Sachs in 20 years.
- psyklic 1y ago
  Undergrads who care about learning and research will take the most challenging classes, do research with professors, and surround themselves with other strong students who will push them. Even at top universities, very very few freshmen are capable of doing high-quality research immediately. They'd be better served learning the foundations inside and out with a cohort of similarly strong students to challenge them.
  - skeptrune 1y ago
    If you do research during your 4 year undergrad. You shouldn't have been undergrad. It's really that simple.
    - psyklic 1y ago
      I'm not sure that's a simple argument and can't imagine many would agree. Undergrads who do research generally aren't very good at research yet. A major reason is they either lack or don't fully understand the pre-reqs, which they progressively and cumulatively learn during undergrad. A student can be incredibly smart, but acquiring a strong rigorous math background will still take years.
      - skeptrune 1y ago
        Working on that skill and ability is the entire point of postgrad. If those are the skills you're working on then you should be in a postgrad program.
        psyklic 1y ago
        If you don't know the foundations well, you don't belong in a postgrad program. That's the reality and how it currently works. Undergrad teaches you those foundations. Anyone can try doing research, even undergrads who half-know the foundations. However, trying research doesn't mean you have the background to do great research or to succeed in a postgrad program.
franga2000 1y ago
The debt part is just a US thing, but the rest of us still have the other problems.
- globalnode 1y ago
  australia copied the US in that regard. they used to say we were the 51st state but i dont even think we qualify as that... a territory perhaps?
  - strken 1y ago
    Australia's debt is in the form of HECS/HELP. It's indexed to inflation, and integrated into the tax system such that it's only repaid on income over a minimum threshold. The first threshold is 1% of income above $56k. The last threshold is 10% of income above $166k. My understanding is that US student loans accrue interest at rates above inflation. They do have repayment plans based on income, but because the interest rate is higher than wage growth, the debt just keeps growing if you're on these plans. They also don't have progressive thresholds like we do and the repayments tend to be higher. Australia has a similar but less severe problem. Inflation and wage growth are closer together but they aren't the same. Still, the situation in the US seems worse.
- WrongAssumption 1y ago
  Not remotely true, and the US isn't even the worst. Students in the UK graduate with more debt.

contravariant 1y ago

To the right people a university education can be an asset rather than a barrier to entry.

conorbergin 1y ago

Very few people are too “advanced” to be challenged by a sufficiently difficult undergraduate degree, ridiculous thing to say imho, I went to a UK university this decade and I can give you a laundry list of issues more significant than “exceptional students being slowed down”.

TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
This woman is undoubtedly exceptional. But we don't know how exceptional, because she's an outlier, educated using different methods. We have no idea how many other people would achieve something similar with a similar background. Personally I'd bet almost anything it's a larger number than most people expect. I'd also be surprised if she doesn't already have a pretty solid background in undergrad-level math. The irony is she's actually more typical than not. Universities in the past were open to giving unusual talents special treatment. Historically, the idea that everyone must follow the same path on the same timetable is unusual.
- ghssds 1y ago
  > everyone must follow the same path on the same timetable We are livestock for corporations, that's why.

Aurornis 1y ago

The number of high schoolers who might be ready to go into postgrad programs is very small. There is no way this could be the “biggest flaw” in higher education today because the number of people possibly impacted is so tiny. Although I think you’re striking at something that is a real problem with undergraduate degrees today: Many universities have become so watered down and softened that students spend the first 1-2 years doing what they should have been learning in high school. My friends who still teach at university constantly complain about students arriving for undergrad with very poor writing, communication, and listening skills.