4 ms·

> if you do not set TERM with tmux properly, your colors will render incorrectly This is of course true of every other terminal emulator as well, and indeed it

by JdeBP 1y ago

> if you do not set TERM with tmux properly, your colors will render incorrectly This is of course true of every other terminal emulator as well, and indeed it's not only colours that are incorrect. Function and editing keys get recognized incorrectly; REP can get used where it does not work; and even simple relative cursor motions can be done wrongly. TERM and the ideas incorporated into terminfo/termcap are inherent in the way that terminal devices work on Unices and Linux-based operating systems. That there are different terminals and terminal emulators not all speaking exactly the same protocol is also an unavoidable reality. Setting TERM properly isn't some tmux-specific problem.

blueflow 1y ago
Yet the author incorrectly blames it on tmux, which gives the article a bad taste. Also im not sure whether the scolling problem is actually tmux fault. Tmux uses the alternate screen buffer, the alternate screen buffer is activated using the smcup/rmcup terminfo capabilities, whose semantics actually say that it "fixes" the window viewport in-place so absolute cursor movement has a known zero position. In this state, any native scrolling attempt should have no effect, and the keypress/scroll wheel events should be forwarded to tmux directly. For some reason, every other terminal emulator still allows local scrolling in the alternate screen, which kinda breaks the semantics of smcup/rmcup and easy scrolling in tmux, too.
- aragilar 1y ago
  Sadly after experimenting with a bunch of "modern" terminals I'm forced to consider that their primary audience is more interest in ricing than actually implementing the terminal commands (or connecting to anything other than their favourite linux box) and so I'm stuck with xterm as the only reliable terminal emulator that won't occasionally spew unreadable junk.
  - sgarland 1y ago
    Have you tried Ghostty? Its creator has been pretty serious about getting everything right.
    - nomad41 1y ago
      I tried it a few months ago and it didn’t even have a way to search terminal output.
      - metaltyphoon 1y ago
        That's the most annoying part of ghostty at the moment. I have no idea why it isn't a priority :( https://github.com/ghostty-org/ghostty/issues/189 https://github.com/ghostty-org/ghostty/issues/189
        tristan957 1y ago
        Because Mitchell doesn't use terminal search, and neither do most of the maintainers.
        metaltyphoon 1y ago
        How is this even possible? Just pipe result from a command into a file and open in vim and search it that way? Perhaps use Neovim's built in terminal where you can search at will? I find it hard to believe that "I don't ever search" is a thing.
        wredcoll 1y ago
        He probably uses tmux which has features for all of those things, why should the terminal re-implement them?
        metaltyphoon 1y ago
        He gave an interview on YouTube, which contradicts this. https://youtu.be/o-qtso47ECk?si=6gWzcL9-69Njd8jq https://youtu.be/o-qtso47ECk?si=6gWzcL9-69Njd8jq
        wredcoll 1y ago
  - t_mahmood 1y ago
    And, actually having terminals crush. It is kind of absurd to have a terminal crush. I've tried Wezterm Ghoatty Ptyxis First two had some frequent crushes, ptyxis is quiet reliable, but I felt it consumes too much memory for a terminal. But I feel it's a good terminal. Though I wish I could get rid of the headerbar
    - Modified3019 1y ago
      What is “terminal crush”? I’ve not heard of this before.
      - rstupek 1y ago
        I think he's referring to being married to or "crush" on the terminal you use
      - partdavid 1y ago
        I'm assuming "crash"--it's a mild malapropism based on some varieties of English phonetics that I've seen before.
      - t_mahmood 1y ago
        Oh, my bad he he, as other corrected
    - elzbardico 1y ago
      you mean "crash"? But who I am to judge if you have a crush on a terminal, some of them are really beautiful in their minimalism. :-D
      - t_mahmood 1y ago
        Ah, terminals ARE really nice, aren't they? Fast and efficient. Can't say that for too many apps. Nevertheless, yeah, I meant crashing, All these years of gnome terminal, Tilix I never had them crashing.
nobleach 1y ago
I agree. It's also true of nearly any program. If you do not set its configuration properly, it may not work as expected. In the case of TMUX, it can be a bit annoying because it's not immediately apparent _why_ things look wonky. But I'm not sure what the solution is. Default to 256 colors?
- JdeBP 1y ago
  Indeed, the TERM environment variable actually is the configuration of "nearly any program" (excluding the ones that aren't doing explicitly terminal I/O, of course, and the bad ones that just ignore TERM and make assumptions). Set TERM wrongly, and one has set the configuration incorrectly for a whole load of programs, in one fell swoop.
  - jcgl 1y ago
    Well, not “nearly any program”; I believe that probing for capabilities is the preferred method these days.
    - JdeBP 1y ago
      I shall merely smile knowingly and tell you that no, it isn't, and you should try that with a broad range of actual terminals and terminal emulators. (-:
      - jcgl 1y ago
        If you would like to productively add some input, I'd certainly welcome it. I like to learn more about this space. My own experience of course includes various terminal emulators with unset or unsupported TERMs. Of course I have of course experienced breakage. Please note that I didn't say few or no programs use TERM. Rather, I mildly disagreed about "nearly any program," and pointed out that there are more robust alternatives to TERM. Especially when it comes to greenfield development, it's not clear to me why anyone would use TERM rather than capabilities. In any case, I always try to leverage caps whenever I can.
qudat 1y ago
> Setting TERM properly isn't some tmux-specific problem. Correct, but it's another layer to deal with. There are `tmux` specific TERMs that should be used which sit on top of your terminal emulator TERM. This was my point: you have another layer that you need to be aware of when using tmux and when debugging. Just look at the top of tmux's FAQ: https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/FAQ https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/FAQ > PLEASE NOTE: most display problems are due to incorrect TERM! Before reporting problems make SURE that TERM settings are correct inside and outside tmux. > Inside tmux TERM must be "screen", "tmux" or similar (such as "tmux-256color"). Don't bother reporting problems where it isn't! > Outside, it should match your terminal: particularly, use "rxvt" for rxvt and derivatives.

by JdeBP 1y ago

blueflow 1y ago

Yet the author incorrectly blames it on tmux, which gives the article a bad taste. Also im not sure whether the scolling problem is actually tmux fault. Tmux uses the alternate screen buffer, the alternate screen buffer is activated using the smcup/rmcup terminfo capabilities, whose semantics actually say that it "fixes" the window viewport in-place so absolute cursor movement has a known zero position. In this state, any native scrolling attempt should have no effect, and the keypress/scroll wheel events should be forwarded to tmux directly. For some reason, every other terminal emulator still allows local scrolling in the alternate screen, which kinda breaks the semantics of smcup/rmcup and easy scrolling in tmux, too.

aragilar 1y ago
Sadly after experimenting with a bunch of "modern" terminals I'm forced to consider that their primary audience is more interest in ricing than actually implementing the terminal commands (or connecting to anything other than their favourite linux box) and so I'm stuck with xterm as the only reliable terminal emulator that won't occasionally spew unreadable junk.
- sgarland 1y ago
  Have you tried Ghostty? Its creator has been pretty serious about getting everything right.
  - nomad41 1y ago
    I tried it a few months ago and it didn’t even have a way to search terminal output.
    - metaltyphoon 1y ago
      That's the most annoying part of ghostty at the moment. I have no idea why it isn't a priority :( https://github.com/ghostty-org/ghostty/issues/189 https://github.com/ghostty-org/ghostty/issues/189
      - tristan957 1y ago
        Because Mitchell doesn't use terminal search, and neither do most of the maintainers.
        metaltyphoon 1y ago
        How is this even possible? Just pipe result from a command into a file and open in vim and search it that way? Perhaps use Neovim's built in terminal where you can search at will? I find it hard to believe that "I don't ever search" is a thing.
        wredcoll 1y ago
        He probably uses tmux which has features for all of those things, why should the terminal re-implement them?
        metaltyphoon 1y ago
        He gave an interview on YouTube, which contradicts this. https://youtu.be/o-qtso47ECk?si=6gWzcL9-69Njd8jq https://youtu.be/o-qtso47ECk?si=6gWzcL9-69Njd8jq
        wredcoll 1y ago
- t_mahmood 1y ago
  And, actually having terminals crush. It is kind of absurd to have a terminal crush. I've tried Wezterm Ghoatty Ptyxis First two had some frequent crushes, ptyxis is quiet reliable, but I felt it consumes too much memory for a terminal. But I feel it's a good terminal. Though I wish I could get rid of the headerbar
  - Modified3019 1y ago
    What is “terminal crush”? I’ve not heard of this before.
    - rstupek 1y ago
      I think he's referring to being married to or "crush" on the terminal you use
    - partdavid 1y ago
      I'm assuming "crash"--it's a mild malapropism based on some varieties of English phonetics that I've seen before.
    - t_mahmood 1y ago
      Oh, my bad he he, as other corrected
  - elzbardico 1y ago
    you mean "crash"? But who I am to judge if you have a crush on a terminal, some of them are really beautiful in their minimalism. :-D
    - t_mahmood 1y ago
      Ah, terminals ARE really nice, aren't they? Fast and efficient. Can't say that for too many apps. Nevertheless, yeah, I meant crashing, All these years of gnome terminal, Tilix I never had them crashing.

nobleach 1y ago

I agree. It's also true of nearly any program. If you do not set its configuration properly, it may not work as expected. In the case of TMUX, it can be a bit annoying because it's not immediately apparent _why_ things look wonky. But I'm not sure what the solution is. Default to 256 colors?

JdeBP 1y ago
Indeed, the TERM environment variable actually is the configuration of "nearly any program" (excluding the ones that aren't doing explicitly terminal I/O, of course, and the bad ones that just ignore TERM and make assumptions). Set TERM wrongly, and one has set the configuration incorrectly for a whole load of programs, in one fell swoop.
- jcgl 1y ago
  Well, not “nearly any program”; I believe that probing for capabilities is the preferred method these days.
  - JdeBP 1y ago
    I shall merely smile knowingly and tell you that no, it isn't, and you should try that with a broad range of actual terminals and terminal emulators. (-:
    - jcgl 1y ago
      If you would like to productively add some input, I'd certainly welcome it. I like to learn more about this space. My own experience of course includes various terminal emulators with unset or unsupported TERMs. Of course I have of course experienced breakage. Please note that I didn't say few or no programs use TERM. Rather, I mildly disagreed about "nearly any program," and pointed out that there are more robust alternatives to TERM. Especially when it comes to greenfield development, it's not clear to me why anyone would use TERM rather than capabilities. In any case, I always try to leverage caps whenever I can.

qudat 1y ago

> Setting TERM properly isn't some tmux-specific problem. Correct, but it's another layer to deal with. There are `tmux` specific TERMs that should be used which sit on top of your terminal emulator TERM. This was my point: you have another layer that you need to be aware of when using tmux and when debugging. Just look at the top of tmux's FAQ: https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/FAQ https://github.com/tmux/tmux/wiki/FAQ > PLEASE NOTE: most display problems are due to incorrect TERM! Before reporting problems make SURE that TERM settings are correct inside and outside tmux. > Inside tmux TERM must be "screen", "tmux" or similar (such as "tmux-256color"). Don't bother reporting problems where it isn't! > Outside, it should match your terminal: particularly, use "rxvt" for rxvt and derivatives.