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The 2nd Ave Subway in Manhattan, with preparatory construction beginning in 1942. First phase opened in 2017. Although the outcome should be celebrated

The 2nd Ave Subway in Manhattan, with preparatory construction beginning in 1942. First phase opened in 2017. Although the outcome should be celebrated, the slowness and the added costs that brings certainly should not be. While every project is unique, it is not immediately clear why digging a subway on the Upper East Side is twenty times more expensive than in Seoul or ten times more expensive than in Paris. https://marroninstitute.nyu.edu/blog/costly-lessons-from-the-second-avenue-subway https://marroninstitute.nyu.edu/blog/costly-lessons-from-the... here's a even more damning look: https://www.vitalcitynyc.org/articles/why-it-costs-4-billion-per-mile-of-subway-track https://www.vitalcitynyc.org/articles/why-it-costs-4-billion... edit: I've been on a tirade about this subject this week. https://www.brethorsting.com/blog/2025/07/state-capacity-and-eight-parking-spaces/ https://www.brethorsting.com/blog/2025/07/state-capacity-and...

jauntywundrkind 1y ago
Super enjoyed this read today. And a much shorter punchline. https://www.volts.wtf/p/us-transit-costs-and-how-to-tame https://www.volts.wtf/p/us-transit-costs-and-how-to-tame https://bsky.app/profile/volts.wtf/post/3lvbpy6p2zk2c https://bsky.app/profile/volts.wtf/post/3lvbpy6p2zk2c It's just so sad having a nation where disbelief & being against things is so the spirit.
- aaronbrethorst 1y ago
  I was really disappointed when David Roberts stopped writing due to persistent hand pain, but the podcast series he's turned Volts into as a result has been eye opening for me. I haven't listened to this episode yet. thanks for highlighting it!
- persolb 1y ago
  Alon Levy being brought up on this topic always tweaks my “but somebody is wrong in the internet.” I’ve been on several of the projects he talks about. He’s right about the macro numbers and the general vibe, but often wrong when he starts talking about he details. The main issues are, in general: 1) increased regulation, which includes internal self-regulation. Lots of rules that are preventing potential minor problems, but have a lot of overhead to follow. 2) large projects are treated like a Christmas Tree. Everybody expects their vaguely adjacent hobby horse to be addressed by the project… so scope keeps growing. There is ALWAYS something you can point to that has a good cost/benefit; and always addressing these ensures that the project never actually finishes. 3) lack of decision making. There is a general analysis paralysis and fear of making the wrong call. It’s often cheaper to just move ahead and risk rework. By not moving ahead, change orders are being incurred anyway. As much as a hate saying it, the best thing for any large project in these orgs is being run by a semi-dictator who has enough political capital internal to the org, and who strongly objects to anything outside of scope.
  - bichiliad 1y ago
    I was really sad that we lost Andy Byford. As far as benevolent transit dictators go, I can’t imagine doing much better.
- AceJohnny2 1y ago
  > It's just so sad having a nation where disbelief & being against things is so the spirit. Yeah, being French sucks. ... what?
wwweston 1y ago
The “it is not immediately clear” part should be taken to heart a lot more than it is. Right now I’d bet you could elect Ezra Klein president and he would be as unable to improve things as most, and he probably has a somewhat clearer picture of the factors than your average internet commentator. Railing against optimizing for caution in a vague sense really isn’t articulating specific dynamics however well it leans into the shallow strawmanification of “regulation” that doesn’t merely dominate lay discourse but has essentially ascended into conceptual godhood without having paid real dues in sacrifice or insight. There is no respectable theory of why that has even begun to grasp the problem.
- aaronbrethorst 1y ago
  I recommend checking out the Vital City NYC link i shared. It articulates some of the “specific dynamics” you’re thoughtfully, if turgidly requesting.
  - twojacobtwo 1y ago
    Thank you for using "turgidly" as such. You've given me a new appreciation for the term.
  - wwweston 1y ago
    no more turgid than the much of the boner for building boosterism, just more notes, which may not be a bad thing if some of the scope of consideration could stand to be inflated. before I check vital city, should I anticipate that they go beyond articulating “here’s a series of public institutions that took a long time to do things“ and perhaps even into “here’s our theory of the incentives and other motivations that underlie the sociology of this behavior”? or mostly the former?
    - aaronbrethorst 1y ago
      Put down the thesaurus, my dude. And yes.
- km144 1y ago

jauntywundrkind 1y ago

Super enjoyed this read today. And a much shorter punchline. https://www.volts.wtf/p/us-transit-costs-and-how-to-tame https://www.volts.wtf/p/us-transit-costs-and-how-to-tame https://bsky.app/profile/volts.wtf/post/3lvbpy6p2zk2c https://bsky.app/profile/volts.wtf/post/3lvbpy6p2zk2c It's just so sad having a nation where disbelief & being against things is so the spirit.

aaronbrethorst 1y ago
I was really disappointed when David Roberts stopped writing due to persistent hand pain, but the podcast series he's turned Volts into as a result has been eye opening for me. I haven't listened to this episode yet. thanks for highlighting it!
persolb 1y ago
Alon Levy being brought up on this topic always tweaks my “but somebody is wrong in the internet.” I’ve been on several of the projects he talks about. He’s right about the macro numbers and the general vibe, but often wrong when he starts talking about he details. The main issues are, in general: 1) increased regulation, which includes internal self-regulation. Lots of rules that are preventing potential minor problems, but have a lot of overhead to follow. 2) large projects are treated like a Christmas Tree. Everybody expects their vaguely adjacent hobby horse to be addressed by the project… so scope keeps growing. There is ALWAYS something you can point to that has a good cost/benefit; and always addressing these ensures that the project never actually finishes. 3) lack of decision making. There is a general analysis paralysis and fear of making the wrong call. It’s often cheaper to just move ahead and risk rework. By not moving ahead, change orders are being incurred anyway. As much as a hate saying it, the best thing for any large project in these orgs is being run by a semi-dictator who has enough political capital internal to the org, and who strongly objects to anything outside of scope.
- bichiliad 1y ago
  I was really sad that we lost Andy Byford. As far as benevolent transit dictators go, I can’t imagine doing much better.
AceJohnny2 1y ago
> It's just so sad having a nation where disbelief & being against things is so the spirit. Yeah, being French sucks. ... what?

wwweston 1y ago

The “it is not immediately clear” part should be taken to heart a lot more than it is. Right now I’d bet you could elect Ezra Klein president and he would be as unable to improve things as most, and he probably has a somewhat clearer picture of the factors than your average internet commentator. Railing against optimizing for caution in a vague sense really isn’t articulating specific dynamics however well it leans into the shallow strawmanification of “regulation” that doesn’t merely dominate lay discourse but has essentially ascended into conceptual godhood without having paid real dues in sacrifice or insight. There is no respectable theory of why that has even begun to grasp the problem.

aaronbrethorst 1y ago
I recommend checking out the Vital City NYC link i shared. It articulates some of the “specific dynamics” you’re thoughtfully, if turgidly requesting.
- twojacobtwo 1y ago
  Thank you for using "turgidly" as such. You've given me a new appreciation for the term.
- wwweston 1y ago
  no more turgid than the much of the boner for building boosterism, just more notes, which may not be a bad thing if some of the scope of consideration could stand to be inflated. before I check vital city, should I anticipate that they go beyond articulating “here’s a series of public institutions that took a long time to do things“ and perhaps even into “here’s our theory of the incentives and other motivations that underlie the sociology of this behavior”? or mostly the former?
  - aaronbrethorst 1y ago
    Put down the thesaurus, my dude. And yes.
km144 1y ago