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> It's against the German constitution No one cares. Like anywhere in the world.

by betaby 1y ago

IncreasePosts 1y ago
Just saying "It's unconstitutional" doesn't really cut it. It's a question for the courts to decide (based on the constitution).
- bee_rider 1y ago
  A constitution is the basic big-picture law of the country. The court’s interpretation should be easy to guess. Otherwise, the people won’t feel like it is their document. Rule of law is aided by laws that people know how to follow.
  - IncreasePosts 1y ago
    At least in America, a classic go to for Republican and democrats alike for opposing legislation is "that's unconstitutional!"
    - bee_rider 1y ago
      Sure, I’m from the US as well. In our case, I think this stems from multiple problems—the popular understanding of the constitution and the letter of the thing have diverged, and also the Supreme Court has gone in a third totally unrelated direction. So it becomes a convenient rhetorical meme. (IMO, we should the thing once a generation and have the populace re-ratify it with a high consensus, so we’re all on the same page). I’m not sure if that’s the case in Germany though.
      - RamblingCTO 1y ago
        as the constitution doesn't have that high of a place in our identity it's more something for constitutional lawyers and higher courts. I think there's more tension between our constitutional law and that of the EU's law. for most people that's background noise I guess.
        yxhuvud 1y ago
        In this particular question there are also fundamental human rights that are part of the EU legislation where it is fully plausible that ECJ would render any law implementing the EU law. Like Ipred, where our politicians tried to pass laws following it but it got struck down again and again. No idea if they have given up yet.
- RamblingCTO 1y ago
  They did already, multiple times now. Hence my original comment.
RamblingCTO 1y ago
I think your comment was taken as "no one cares about Germany"/being snarky. But it can also be read as "those who should do not respect the constitution, like anywhere in the world". I assume the latter, am I correct?
- betaby 1y ago
  'Constitution' arguments are used by ones in power only to server their agenda. Constitution argument won't save us from the surveillance. Most of the time western countries play 'national security' and 'think of the children' to circumvent the constitution and have ~100% success rate.
  - RamblingCTO 1y ago
    I don't feel like that's true in Germany. The constitutional court would like a word I guess. They have a pretty big history regarding surveilance and such.
    - betaby 1y ago
      So shouldn't be a concern then for Germans? Somehow I don't buy that. See for example https://forum.torproject.org/t/tor-relays-artikel-5-e-v-another-police-raid-in-germany-general-assembly-on-sep-21st-2024/14533 https://forum.torproject.org/t/tor-relays-artikel-5-e-v-anot... and that's not an isolated event. Before that were jabber chat nodes.
      - RamblingCTO 1y ago
        So did they go to court? I think that would be crucial to rectify that. If not, they let the rogue agents have a free hand.
        betaby 1y ago
        Be involved in the legal battle (especially with the government) is a punishment already. The state has unlimited power to haras and do that frequently.

> It's against the German constitution No one cares. Like anywhere in the world.

by betaby 1y ago

> It's against the German constitution No one cares. Like anywhere in the world.

Just saying "It's unconstitutional" doesn't really cut it. It's a question for the courts to decide (based on the constitution).

bee_rider 1y ago
A constitution is the basic big-picture law of the country. The court’s interpretation should be easy to guess. Otherwise, the people won’t feel like it is their document. Rule of law is aided by laws that people know how to follow.
- IncreasePosts 1y ago
  At least in America, a classic go to for Republican and democrats alike for opposing legislation is "that's unconstitutional!"
  - bee_rider 1y ago
    Sure, I’m from the US as well. In our case, I think this stems from multiple problems—the popular understanding of the constitution and the letter of the thing have diverged, and also the Supreme Court has gone in a third totally unrelated direction. So it becomes a convenient rhetorical meme. (IMO, we should the thing once a generation and have the populace re-ratify it with a high consensus, so we’re all on the same page). I’m not sure if that’s the case in Germany though.
    - RamblingCTO 1y ago
      as the constitution doesn't have that high of a place in our identity it's more something for constitutional lawyers and higher courts. I think there's more tension between our constitutional law and that of the EU's law. for most people that's background noise I guess.
      - yxhuvud 1y ago
        In this particular question there are also fundamental human rights that are part of the EU legislation where it is fully plausible that ECJ would render any law implementing the EU law. Like Ipred, where our politicians tried to pass laws following it but it got struck down again and again. No idea if they have given up yet.
RamblingCTO 1y ago
They did already, multiple times now. Hence my original comment.

RamblingCTO 1y ago

I think your comment was taken as "no one cares about Germany"/being snarky. But it can also be read as "those who should do not respect the constitution, like anywhere in the world". I assume the latter, am I correct?

betaby 1y ago
'Constitution' arguments are used by ones in power only to server their agenda. Constitution argument won't save us from the surveillance. Most of the time western countries play 'national security' and 'think of the children' to circumvent the constitution and have ~100% success rate.
- RamblingCTO 1y ago
  I don't feel like that's true in Germany. The constitutional court would like a word I guess. They have a pretty big history regarding surveilance and such.
  - betaby 1y ago
    So shouldn't be a concern then for Germans? Somehow I don't buy that. See for example https://forum.torproject.org/t/tor-relays-artikel-5-e-v-another-police-raid-in-germany-general-assembly-on-sep-21st-2024/14533 https://forum.torproject.org/t/tor-relays-artikel-5-e-v-anot... and that's not an isolated event. Before that were jabber chat nodes.
    - RamblingCTO 1y ago
      So did they go to court? I think that would be crucial to rectify that. If not, they let the rogue agents have a free hand.
      - betaby 1y ago
        Be involved in the legal battle (especially with the government) is a punishment already. The state has unlimited power to haras and do that frequently.