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What is gVisor?
- ericpauley 1y agoOne of the coolest things about gVisor to me is that it's the ultimate implication of core computer engineering concepts like "the OS is just software" and "network traffic is just bytes". It's one thing to learn these ideas in theory, but it's another altogether to be able to play with an entire network stack in userspace and inject arbitrary behavior in the OSI stack. It's also been cool to see what companies like Fly.io and Tailscale can do with complete flexibility in the network, enabled by tools like gVisor.
- sidewndr46 1y agoI'm trying to understand the point you're making here but don't really get it. The OS is just software, in most circumstances. Most modern OS require at least one binary blob that has to be sent to some hardware device. This is mostly because the the device manufacturer didn't want to include NVRAM and at the end of the day is usually just software as well.
- bananapub 1y agotheir point is that lots of things everyone thinks of as "OS" things like "tcp" and "doing file IO" can just be done in user space by some new program without the processes that make use of these facilities knowing or caring.
- surajrmal 1y agoThe majority of any OS lives in user space though. Intercepting syscalls is also not that weird of an idea, that's how tools like strace works. Building out sufficient kernel functionality without needing to forward calls to the kernel is definitely impressive though.
- tptacek 1y agoWhat do you mean by that? There's a notion of an "operating system" that encompasses both the kernel and all the userland tools (in this sense, each Linux distribution is an "OS"), and there's a more common notion of an OS that is just the kernel and any userland services required for the kernel to function; the latter is the more common definition.
- surajrmal 1y agoThis definition really only work for monolithic kernels. Just because you move a filesystem or network stack into user space doesn't make less part of operating system. Those components are certainly not necessary for the kernel to function. Linux already chooses to place many things like display and rendering stacks in user space despite them fulfilling a similar role for the hardware they interact with to that of a networking stack. I personally think an OS is everything that helps abstract and multiplex hardware for applications that sit above it, providing a consistent API to build on top of. Different OS may choose to abstract different layers and defer ownership of the hardware to things built on top of it, but that doesn't ultimately challenge the definition.
- leetrout 1y agoHow does Fly use gVisor?
- abound 1y agoI don't believe they do, they use Firecracker microVMs for isolation: https://fly.io/docs/reference/architecture/ https://fly.io/docs/reference/architecture/
- ericpauley 1y agohttps://fly.io/blog/ssh-and-user-mode-ip-wireguard/ https://fly.io/blog/ssh-and-user-mode-ip-wireguard/
- PhilippGille 1y agoQuote: > And, long story short, we now have an implementation of certificate-based SSH, running over gVisor user-mode TCP/IP, running over userland wireguard-go, built into flyctl.
- tptacek 1y agoAlso: https://fly.io/blog/our-user-mode-wireguard-year/ https://fly.io/blog/our-user-mode-wireguard-year/ https://fly.io/blog/jit-wireguard-peers/ https://fly.io/blog/jit-wireguard-peers/ This is another one of those things where the graph of our happiness about a technical decision is sinusoidal. :)
- tptacek 1y agoWe don't.
- jchw 1y agoI think they mean to say that a part of gVisor is used by Fly, because if I recall correctly flyctl did use the gVisor user mode TCP stack for Wireguard tunneling.
- quotemstr 1y agoJust wait until you read about Wine or captive NDIS. You'll probably enjoy User Mode Linux most of all. The concept of an OS still makes sense on a system with no privilege level transitions and a single address space (e.g. DOS, FreeRTOS): therefore, mystical low level register goo isn't essential to the concept. The boundary between the OS is a lot more porous and a lot less arcane than people imagine. In the end, it's just software.
- jchw 1y agoI believe early on Linode used UML for their VPS hosting offering. At that point in history, I recall solutions like OpenVZ being pretty popular in the low end space, too. gVisor's modular design seems to have been its strongest point. It's not that nobody understood the OS is just software or whatever, but actually ripping the Linux TCP stack out and using it in userland isn't really that trivial. Meanwhile though a lot of projects have made use of the gVisor networking components, since they're pretty self-contained. I think gVisor is one of the coolest things written in Go, although it's not really that easy to convey why. Seriously, just check out the list of packages in the pkg directory: https://pkg.go.dev/gvisor.dev/gvisor https://pkg.go.dev/gvisor.dev/gvisor (I should acknowledge, though, that I don't know of that many unique use cases for all of these packages; and while the TCP stack is very useful, it's mainly used for Wireguard tunneling and user mode TCP stacks are not particularly new. Still, the gVisor network stack is nicer than hacked together stuff using SLiRP-derived code imo.)
- udev4096 1y agoMoving to unikernel [0] is the best way to get strong isolation and high performance [0] - https://unikraft.org https://unikraft.org
- sidewndr46 1y agoThe last solution I looked at to do something like this was using tap / tun devices for networking. How does unikraft handle network isolation and virtualization?
- udev4096 1y agoFrom my limited understanding, it has the same isolation advantages as that of a VM and therefore it's as strong as the hypervisor you use
- sidewndr46 1y agoso does unikraft contain a "driver" for virtio networking?
- johncolanduoni 1y agoIt relies on your hypervisor and/or network hardware to provide that. In an ideal circumstance (e.g. running on a multiqueue NIC with VFIO or virtio acceleration), your VM can talk directly to the network hardware. Major clouds will provide something morally equivalent via their newer network interfaces (gVNIC etc.).
- mikepurvis 1y agoAbsolutely, that reduces your surface area more than anything else, but at an enormous cost to ergonomics. Some of us are still fighting for docker images to not include a vim install ("but it's so handy!") and here we've got madlads building their app as its own bootable machine image.
- johncolanduoni 1y agoIt’s not the best way to get low per-privilege domain overhead and fungible resource allocation. You’re ultimately limited by your hypervisor on those fronts. gVisor containers are ultimately a few Linux processes and mostly behave like one from a CPU and memory allocation perspective.
- mikepurvis 1y agoI love the concept of gVisor; it's surprising to me that it hasn't seemingly gotten more real world traction— even GHA is booting you a fresh machine for every build when probably 80%+ of them could run just fine in a gVisor sandbox. I'd be curious to hear from someone at Google if gVisor gets a ton of internal use there, or it really was built mainly for GCP/GKE
- seabrookmx 1y agoGoogle Cloud Functions and Cloud Run both started as gVisor sandboxes and now have "gen2" runtimes that boot a full VM. Poor I/O performance and a couple of missing syscalls made it hard to predict how your app was going to behave before you deployed it. Another example of a switch like this is WSL 1 to WSL 2 on Windows. It seems like unless you have a niche use case, it's hard to truly replicate a full Linux kernel.
- kang1 1y agogvisor is difficult to implement in practice. it a syscall proxy rather than a virtualization mechanism (even thus it does have kvm calls). This causes a few issues: - the proxying can be slightly slower - its not a vm, so you cannot use things such as confidential compute (memory encryption) - you can't instrument all syscalls, actually (most work, but there's a few edges cases where it wont and a vm will work just fine) On the flip side, some potential kernel vulnerabilities will be blocked by gvisor, while it wont in a vm (where it wouldnt be a hypervisor escape, but you'd be able to run code as the kernel). This is to say: there are some good use cases for gVisor, and there's less of these than for (micro) vms in general. Google developed both gVisor and crosvm (firecracker and others are based on it) and uses both in different products. AFAIK, there isn't a ton of gVisor use internally if its not already in the product, though some use it in Borg (they have a "sandbox multiplexer" called vanadium where you can pick and choose your isolation mechanism)
- coppsilgold 1y agoIt's not an actual [filtering] proxy. It re-implements an increasing chunk of Linux syscalls with its own logic. It has to invoke some Linux syscalls to do so but it doesn't just pass them through.
- gowld 1y agoWhat in this article is different for the gvisor intro docs (where the gVisor pictures are plagiarized from)? https://gvisor.dev/docs/ https://gvisor.dev/docs/
- setheron 1y agoIs gVisor a libc LD_PRELOAD ?
- kang1 1y agono ;) (though you could start it there if you wanted, but.. why) LD_PRELOAD simply loads a library of your choice that executes code in the process context, that's all. folks usually do this when they cannot recompile or change the running binary, which means they also hook and/or overwrite functions of the said program. generally folks will have gvisor calls integrated to their sandbox code, before the target process starts, so no need for preloading anything in most cases
- lanigone 1y agoask chatgpt to run dmesg via python and you’ll find another use of gvisor in prod…
- sneak 1y agoI have wondered for a long time why we don’t see more networking in userspace for high security applications that don’t require high performance. I guess the answer is just that Linux has enough features now to hook into the kernel with userspace code that it usually isn’t necessary to move the whole IP and TCP stacks out.
- illamint 1y agogVisor also has a complete userspace networking stack that you can pull in, which makes it a lot easier to do some neat things like run an HTTP server responding to packets intercepted via eBPF and sent to an AF_XDP socket, which would otherwise be a pain.
- tptacek 1y agoThere's a separately-maintained fork of this (originally by the Tailscale folks) at https://pkg.go.dev/inet.af/netstack https://pkg.go.dev/inet.af/netstack.
- spr-alex 1y agoWe're adding support to gvisor for container plugins, it's a reasonable approach for limiting the rich attack surface on linux
- remram 1y agoWho is "we"? What are "container plugins"?
- thundergolfer 1y agoWe've run gVisor for over 2 years at Modal, and it's been a huge unlock for us. We get a secure sandbox with GPU support that can run on VMs. Just recently it allowed us to checkpoint/restore containers AND its GPUs[1]. gVisor's achilles heel is it's missing or inaccurate syscalls, but the gVisor team is first class in responding to Github issues so it's really quite manageable in practice if you know how to debug and hack on a userspace kernel. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44747116 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44747116
- ignoramous 1y ago> userspace kernel Is gVisor a Kernel or a syscall + select subsystems (like network/gpu) proxy? In my head, a monolith Kernel (like Linux) does more than just syscalls (like memory management, device management, filesystems etc).
- peterldowns 1y agoIn the past I'd heard people recommend against gVisor, and recommend looking at firecracker instead, because of I/O overhead. Is that something you've noticed at Modal? Obviously you're happy with gVisor, not suggesting you switch, just curious about your experience.
- tptacek 1y agoHow are you handling the GPU isolation? (This was a big challenge for us doing AMD-Vi KVM isolation).
- Nican 1y agoMicrosoft's blog post on Hyperlight got my attention a while ago: https://opensource.microsoft.com/blog/2025/02/11/hyperlight-creating-a-0-0009-second-micro-vm-execution-time/ https://opensource.microsoft.com/blog/2025/02/11/hyperlight-... I am way out of my depth here, but can anyone make a comparison with the "micro virtual machines" concept?
- eyberg 1y agomicrovms as espoused by things like firecracker offer full machines but have tradeoffs like no gpu (which makes it boot faster) hyperlight shaves way more off - (eg: no access to various devices that you'd find via qemu or firecracker) it does make use of virtualization but it doesn't try to have a full blown machine so it's better for things like embedding simple functions - I actually think it's an interesting concept but it is very different than what firecracker is doing
- laurencerowe 1y agoTinyKVM [1] has similarities to the gVisor approach but runs at the KVM level instead, proxying a limited set of system calls through to the host. EDIT: It seems that gVisor has a KVM mode too. https://gvisor.dev/docs/architecture_guide/platforms/#kvm https://gvisor.dev/docs/architecture_guide/platforms/#kvm I've been working on KVMServer [2] recently which uses TinyKVM to run existing Linux server applications by intercepting epoll calls. While there is a small overhead to crossing the KVM boundary to handle sys calls we get the ability to quickly reset the state of the guest. This means we can provide per-request isolation with an order of magnitude less overhead than alternative approaches like forking a process or even spinning up a v8 isolate. [1] Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43358980 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43358980 [2] https://github.com/libriscv/kvmserver https://github.com/libriscv/kvmserver
- vlovich123 1y agoHow do you deal with the lack of performance optimizations for JIT code because there’s no warm up and the optimizer never runs?
- laurencerowe 1y agoWe have support for running warmup requests and fork the VM after that. Eventually I’d like to add the ability to export the state of the VM so the warmup can be run on a different machine.
- vlovich123 1y agoI think there’s a number of challenges with that approach, mainly getting a representative set of sample queries that will accurately optimize the reference VM. I wonder if harvesting the VM state at scale based on pages that are duplicates across machines might work of course then you have problems with ASLR and how to reconstruct a VM to actually use that data.
- laurencerowe 1y ago