6 ms·
Dark patterns
- altruios 1y agoI agree that all of these are dark patterns that have been folded into most websites. We should not implement these patterns, or allow them to be implemented unchallenged.
- musicale 1y agoI think I would find it hard to stomach implementing many commonly seen dark patterns in software. But someone must be implementing them.
- BlindEyeHalo 1y agoPlenty of people work in weapon manufacturing or other jobs that bring way more harm to people than a website popup.
- altruios 1y agowhataboutism, in display. Off topic comment that will derail conversation.
- birthdaywizard 1y agoThat's not really whataboutism. They're not justifying it, they're supplementing the relevant point by saying development in areas of moral controversy are quite common even in more controversial areas.
- altruios 1y agoHow does irrelevant information supplement the point? It's only a distraction. Your interpretation of their post seems quite generous. They made a single statement, and didn't back it up with anything like what you are saying they did. So it really is a whataboutism: "Whataboutism is a rhetorical tactic that attempts to deflect criticism or avoid addressing a point by responding with a counter-accusation or question about someone else or something else, often unrelated to the original issue". "Weapons manufacturing" has nothing to do with "website creation". It is a whataboutism.
- theoreticalmal 1y agoThat your thing is bad and should be opposed doesn’t mean another thing is also bad and ought be opposed
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- anonu 1y agoI appreciate the dark pattern enumeration here - but, as an American, I find it strange that the Australian Government needs to get involved with this PSA.
- altruios 1y agoNothing about this is regional to Australia. Every government should put out this kind of PSA. Dark patterns make everything worse in the long term for short term gain.
- aiisahik 1y agoAustralia is a nanny state. They will attempt to regulate these dark patterns next.
- yapyap 1y agoand that would be bad?
- altruios 1y agoGOOD! These NEED to be regulated HEAVILY. Dark patterns make everything worse, there is no valid reason to use them. NONE. Short term gains from such patterns do not offset the harms these patterns cause.
- dsadfjasdf 1y agothe market learns, then judges you
- standardUser 1y agoA "nanny state" is a government that stops YOU from doing something (which Australia does a lot by Western standards). But what you're describing is market regulation.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- slowmotarget 1y agoOpen question: if a bartender greets you with a compliment and a wink, and then proceeds to sell you a cocktail, is it a dark pattern?
- cwmoore 1y agoDimly lit
- zamadatix 1y ago"Dark pattern" is specific to digital user interfaces, the bartender use case might be just called emotional marketing or, more plainly, flattery. Keep in mind, digital or not, not all forms of negatively viewed tactics hold the same weight. E.g. a nagging confirmation for cancellation is typically viewed less negatively than confirm shaming, even though both are often listed as types of dark patterns. The type of coercion in the bartender example is likely towards the less negative side of manipulative tactics in most people's minds.
- befictious 1y agoi think they know that and are just being cheeky for affect. however, URL dark patterns are the digital equivalent of IRL social engineering.
- dsadfjasdf 1y agoIf he talked the whole time about making a mojito, then gave you a water
- rapnie 1y agoJust half-serious here when musing: not in any practical sense, but philosophically perhaps. The bartender is in the Hospitality business, and assuming that the essence of that business is genuine hospitality, there is no dark pattern if the compliment and wink are genuine. But if they are just a marketing gimmick that the bartender pulls at every table like a used cars salesman, then it is a deception pattern.
- aaron695 1y ago
- rapnie 1y ago[flagged]
- jimmaswell 1y agoThis one is a stretch. 'Dark pattern' makes me think of something like a burglar hiding in the darkness of shadows or nighttime, not race. And the website in question is hosted by the Australian government, American censorship doesn't come into the picture..
- rapnie 1y agoThanks, I updated the text putting the US bit in parentheses. For black-list/white-list replacing with block-list/allow-list (also more descriptive) is a a clearer example of the rationale to change the terminology. In general it is about the whole range of feelings and perceptions around "dark" and how they lead to biases in people, often without being aware. If we become conditioned that uses of "dark" invoke gut feelings of sneaky, shady, illegal, secretive, nefarious, evil, etc. some of that may seep through in how people with dark skin are considered. Whether that is true or not, in any case, the alternative terminology being more descriptive, it is low-hanging fruit to adopt it.
- zzo38computer 1y ago> For black-list/white-list replacing with block-list/allow-list (also more descriptive) is a a clearer example of the rationale to change the terminology. Sometimes it is more descriptive, but sometimes other words will be more descriptive, too. (Usually the words "blacklist" and "whitelist" are not hyphenated from what I could see, though) Sometimes the list is used to block and allow something, but sometimes other words such as exclude and include will be better. To really be more descriptive you might write e.g. "allow by default but deny whatever is listed", and "deny by default but allow only what is listed", etc. > If we become conditioned that uses of "dark" invoke gut feelings of sneaky, shady, illegal, secretive, nefarious, evil, etc. At least to me, it does not. It might be secretive (because, it is dark, it cannot be seen; however, just because it cannot be seen does not necessarily imply that they intend to keep it secret and prevent anyone from knowing what it is), does not necessarily mean it is illegal and nefarious and evil. > Whether that is true or not, in any case, the alternative terminology being more descriptive, it is low-hanging fruit to adopt it. I do agree, if you actually do have a better more descriptive terminology, it will be better, although being more descriptive can also make the wording too long, so that can be a disadvantage too. Also, sometimes words are suggested, which do not sound good, or are too similar to the other word.
- jimmaswell 1y agoCountdown timers and ‘Only 4 left’ are often scams, but they should note a few sites like eBay get a pass since for simply giving true facts about the auction.
- m463 1y agoIsn't an auction itself a giant dark pattern? Also, ebay mixes auction with buy it now in the same item.
- explodes 1y agoBuy-It-Now combined with an auction is exactly like selling a car listed with O.B.O. (e g. ”$5000 or best offer"). This doesn't seem like a dark pattern to me for either side of the transaction.
- subscribed 1y agoI like it a lot. I either want something NAOW and don't mind a slightly higher price than I'd pay if I waited a few days.
- Centigonal 1y agoAuctions are great price discovery mechanisms. Nothing wrong with that IMO
- theoreticalmal 1y agoOnly if you consider voluntary interpersonal economics a dark pattern
- zzo38computer 1y agoSome things can be mitigated by avoiding CSS and JavaScripts in web pages. My idea of a "computer payment file" can also mitigate some of them (such as hidden costs, especially hidden recurring costs). Forced continuity and some kind of hidden costs probably should be made illegal, though (although there are the details to be considered; the laws should not be made excessive). Someone who uses such a deception could also be given a bad reputation, independently from laws, but it would be necessary to avoid a monopoly, too. Other things could also be done, such as client software on computers to be designed better, and making that you should not require specific types of computers (or, in some cases, any computer, or any internet connection) for many important things.
- cadamsdotcom 1y agoMy favorite “dark pattern” is when you close a tab with items in your cart and a burner email associated, then a couple days later they email a promo code.
- mxxx 1y agoYeah sometimes you can use this one to your advantage though. If was buying something recently and the website was just giving off those types of vibes, so I went to the checkout and bailed. Next day, got a reminder. Three days later, discount offer. One week later, slightly better discount offer.
- mxxx 1y agoThe killer these days is places demanding your email prior to giving you a shipping estimate. Particularly annoying if you live somewhere where shipping costs vary greatly between providers.
- Centigonal 1y agoI hate hate hate this - especially because my browser autofills my email with my address. My flow is to autofill, then go back and change the email to gibberish. Sometimes that doesn't work and I get some un-asked for promotion anyway. I think I should have to at least click a button for some company to be able to send me what is clearly a marketing email.
- Helmut10001 1y agoNot allowed in Europe, afaik.
- iask 1y agoIf you want to see dark patterns in action in the US, visit any fitness, diet, weight-loss, vitamin and supplement website. CEOs, CMOs and marketers prioritize the “abandoned cart”. It’s just business.
- t_mahmood 1y agoOne I had to face was, they put a tiny dot over the close button on a dialog box, so when you try to close it, you're actually clicking the dot. You really have to notice the dot to avoid it and actually click the close button. I uninstalled the app, and left a review, but knowing the company, I don't think they'll ever fix it.
- nudgeOrnurture 1y agoto me, dark patterns were not the means, but the goals: the cognitive patterns that are established and reinforced after all the methods have been successfully applied. [hop] when all those little spikes compound while you ingest global and national news and those backpacking friends from Russia, Ukraine and Cambodia come home ^^, for example ... [hop] and we thought Machiavelli et al wrote so we could understand, when they really just established patterns that could be matched with little effort