7 ms·

Only one I disagree with is #12, "Chastity. Rarely use venery but for health or offspring, never to dullness, weakness, or the injury of your own or another's p

by rodly 14y ago

Only one I disagree with is #12, "Chastity. Rarely use venery but for health or offspring, never to dullness, weakness, or the injury of your own or another's peace or reputation.", this is breaking his own moderation virtue and is heavily motivated by social pressures on sex.

dkhenry 14y ago
I don't think so. I think he is making a conscious decision to limit something in his life that is not necessary, and that he might find as a distraction. Sexuality for all its enjoyable qualities can be a distraction to the best of us, and there is nothing wrong with taking an attitude towards it that says I will limit something that is good and I enjoy for something I perceive to be better.
- shortlived 14y ago
  that is not necessary, If more people had more (safe) sex, the world would be a better place.
  - pyre 14y ago
    You could probably state something similar about marijuana. The real point being that too many people are up-tight and need to find a way to relax/unwind that releases a bunch of endorphins. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to do this that don't have to involve sex.
rvkennedy 14y ago
Technology is the chief driver of social mores. In Franklin's time, too much sex would likely expose you to health hazards such as syphilis, or unwanted babies. Today, we have medicine and contraception that should minimize these risks. But I think this point still applies - it just depends on your definition of "rarely"... no more than twice a day perhaps!
jcromartie 14y ago
I think "for health" covers it. The admonition "never to dullness, weakness, or ... injury ..." is being rediscovered en masse over here: http://reddit.com/r/nofap http://reddit.com/r/nofap
- stephengillie 14y ago
  Many people express this fetish for delaying gratification, but it's not for everyone. It's cute to see people getting into it and thinking the rest of us should go without.
mediacrisis 14y ago
That one threw me too. Especially since I was under the impression that chastity was not his main concern in Paris... but then again, that's Paris ;)
colmvp 14y ago
Maybe he learned something after frequenting brothels (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/03/were_there_sex_shops_in_the_time_of_george_washington.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...) and siring an illegitimate son in his youth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Franklin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Franklin).
- keppy 14y ago
  He always had high ideas about chastity but seldom followed them. In my mind Franklin has always embodied "Do as I say, not as I do"--almost in a mischievous or humorous way. I think he did learn from his actions, but not in the same way we usually think of someone "learning" from their actions. He always knew the right answers but preferred to have a little fun.
brittohalloran 14y ago
Definitely some puritan influence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritanism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritanism)
- keppy 14y ago
  Puritanism influences everyone. But Franklin was no puritan, and to assume that the beliefs of puritans were the basis for his tips on chastity adds no real insight to this discussion. Anyone can easily identify ideals in our present and past that seem adverse to liberal sexuality and cry "Puritan!"--but this discounts the brilliance of people like Franklin. He had a high level view of the different ideals in his culture and often addressed them with a tongue-in-cheek or satirical tone.
  - Gormo 14y ago
    As an aside, neither the Puritans nor mainstream culture in Franklin's era were especially prudish about sexual activity. What people call 'puritanical' today is really an artifact of the Victorian era.
djt 14y ago
Back then you couldn't just take a pill to get rid of any diseases you might pick up.
jackfoxy 14y ago
At least one other commenter picked up on for health. It wasn't something people wrote down back in those days, (I don't have a citation) many people then considered complete sexual abstinence unhealthy. So Franklin is saying you should engage often enough to maintain health; and Franklin was no prude, his oldest son was illegitimate, and so was that son's son, William Temple, who Franklin more or less adopted, and who returned the favor by collecting and publishing Franklin's papers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Temple_Franklin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Temple_Franklin
Evbn 14y ago
How is "have sex as needed for your health" in opposition to moderation?

by rodly 14y ago

dkhenry 14y ago

I don't think so. I think he is making a conscious decision to limit something in his life that is not necessary, and that he might find as a distraction. Sexuality for all its enjoyable qualities can be a distraction to the best of us, and there is nothing wrong with taking an attitude towards it that says I will limit something that is good and I enjoy for something I perceive to be better.

shortlived 14y ago
that is not necessary, If more people had more (safe) sex, the world would be a better place.
- pyre 14y ago
  You could probably state something similar about marijuana. The real point being that too many people are up-tight and need to find a way to relax/unwind that releases a bunch of endorphins. I'm sure there are plenty of ways to do this that don't have to involve sex.

rvkennedy 14y ago

Technology is the chief driver of social mores. In Franklin's time, too much sex would likely expose you to health hazards such as syphilis, or unwanted babies. Today, we have medicine and contraception that should minimize these risks. But I think this point still applies - it just depends on your definition of "rarely"... no more than twice a day perhaps!

jcromartie 14y ago

I think "for health" covers it. The admonition "never to dullness, weakness, or ... injury ..." is being rediscovered en masse over here: http://reddit.com/r/nofap http://reddit.com/r/nofap

stephengillie 14y ago
Many people express this fetish for delaying gratification, but it's not for everyone. It's cute to see people getting into it and thinking the rest of us should go without.

mediacrisis 14y ago

That one threw me too. Especially since I was under the impression that chastity was not his main concern in Paris... but then again, that's Paris ;)

colmvp 14y ago

Maybe he learned something after frequenting brothels (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2009/03/were_there_sex_shops_in_the_time_of_george_washington.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...) and siring an illegitimate son in his youth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Franklin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Franklin).

keppy 14y ago
He always had high ideas about chastity but seldom followed them. In my mind Franklin has always embodied "Do as I say, not as I do"--almost in a mischievous or humorous way. I think he did learn from his actions, but not in the same way we usually think of someone "learning" from their actions. He always knew the right answers but preferred to have a little fun.

brittohalloran 14y ago

Definitely some puritan influence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritanism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritanism)

keppy 14y ago
Puritanism influences everyone. But Franklin was no puritan, and to assume that the beliefs of puritans were the basis for his tips on chastity adds no real insight to this discussion. Anyone can easily identify ideals in our present and past that seem adverse to liberal sexuality and cry "Puritan!"--but this discounts the brilliance of people like Franklin. He had a high level view of the different ideals in his culture and often addressed them with a tongue-in-cheek or satirical tone.
- Gormo 14y ago
  As an aside, neither the Puritans nor mainstream culture in Franklin's era were especially prudish about sexual activity. What people call 'puritanical' today is really an artifact of the Victorian era.

djt 14y ago

Back then you couldn't just take a pill to get rid of any diseases you might pick up.

jackfoxy 14y ago

At least one other commenter picked up on for health. It wasn't something people wrote down back in those days, (I don't have a citation) many people then considered complete sexual abstinence unhealthy. So Franklin is saying you should engage often enough to maintain health; and Franklin was no prude, his oldest son was illegitimate, and so was that son's son, William Temple, who Franklin more or less adopted, and who returned the favor by collecting and publishing Franklin's papers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Temple_Franklin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Temple_Franklin

Evbn 14y ago

How is "have sex as needed for your health" in opposition to moderation?