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> Farming is a terrible business. My few hundred acres (maybe worth $5M) will only churn out a few hundred grand in profit -- not even better than holding t-bil

> Farming is a terrible business. My few hundred acres (maybe worth $5M) will only churn out a few hundred grand in profit -- not even better than holding t-bills. Non-judgmental curious question: why do you keep doing it? (As opposed to selling the land and buying tbills.)

appreciatorBus 1y ago
> the ick that comes with running other businesses Also non-judgmental curious question: what is this "ick" related to non-farming businesses?
- fundad 1y ago
  I think it's the way the original poster looks down people running other businesses.
- 9rx 1y ago
  I own both a farm business and non-farm business. I feel the "ick" he talks about. I don't know how to exactly describe it, but I'd suggest it has to do with more autonomy in non-farming businesses, where you are always trying to balance between trying to make the business work and not taking advantage of people. Or if you end up taking advantage of people... In farming, it is all laid out for you. Prices are already set in Chicago. The buyer is always there. You grow the product, deliver it, and that's that. These days, with the way technology has gone, you might not even interact with another person in the process.
  - dataflow 1y ago
    > I don't know how to exactly describe it, but I'd suggest it has to do with more autonomy in non-farming businesses, where you are always trying to balance between trying to make the business work and not taking advantage of people. Or if you end up taking advantage of people... What about all the non-organic farming, use of pesticides/antibiotics/etc., poor treatment of animals (sometimes), water waste in some cases (like almonds in CA), being beholden to & inevitably supporting the wonderful companies that are John Deere and Monsanto, having to use proprietary seeds and IP for such a basic human need, etc.? Some of our largest problems on the planet trace back to modern industrial farming. To be clear, I love and respect farmers a ton, my comment isn't about them at all. They're amazing and hardworking and anybody in the the business would be dealing with the same problems. I'm just talking about the purity of the business itself that you're talking about. The idea that the job is somehow so morally pure compared to all the other jobs baffles me. Your average local job (waiter, cashier, postal delivery worker, janitor, etc.) would seem to have a much more direct positive and impact on people's happiness and much less of an opportunity to take advantage of other beings, as you put it.
    - 9rx 1y ago
      > What about... That is all much the same as the prices being set in Chicago: Someone else has made the decision. While someone else no doubt feels the "ick", I am but the customer who is being taken advantage of. (Well, except in the case of Monsanto — they closed up shop years ago) > Your average local job (waiter... It seems you, deep down, even understand that. Comparing farming to being a waiter as opposed to the restaurant owner, I feel, is a pretty good portrayal of the difference and it is telling that you chose that point of comparison. Technically farming is like owning the restaurant, but in practice, because everything is laid out for you and decisions are made elsewhere, it feels more like being the waiter. You are layers removed from the "ick".
      - ethbr1 1y ago
        To the whataboutism, at the end of the day a farmer has a physical product they can look at, and they know the land it came from. There’s a certain satisfaction there that most people don’t get out of their ‘cog somewhere in the middle of a machine’ jobs.
        9rx 1y ago
        Both my farm and non-farm businesses have a physical product, though. In fact, in both cases the product is food, as it happens. I expect the farm business is less "icky" because it is entirely dehumanized. You don't set the price, you don't have to win over customers, and increasingly with more and more automation you don't even interact with the customer at all. There is no "Poor service. 0 stars." or "Too expensive! Scam." to contend with.
      - dataflow 1y ago
        > Technically farming is like owning the restaurant, but in practice, because everything is laid out for you and decisions are made elsewhere, it feels more like being the waiter. You are layers removed from the "ick". To be blunt: I don't buy this... at all. Farmers have (in theory, and to some extent in practice) choice in (a) what they grow, (b) whether to grow organic/GMO/etc., (c) what pesticides/fertilizers/etc. they use and how much, (d) how they treat any animals they have, (e) whom they sell to... I could go on. Of course competition and supply and demand constrain what they can do, but that's true for most if not all business owners, including restaurant owners. Waiters are not* like this... at all. They have -- by definition of their jobs -- zero control over the dishes, the recipe, the cooking, what is ordered, whom to serve, etc. Therefore the idea that "technically" the farmer is like the restaurant owner but "in practice" like the waiter therefore makes no sense to me. They are (extremely) more similar to the restaurant owner in basically every dimension, not just "theoretically".
- arbor_day 1y ago
  There’s something righteous in farming where it’s really hard to feel like you’re doing wrong even if you’re getting rich — you are just feeding people. It’s like being a doctor.
  - skeezyboy 1y ago
    its why farmers are always such jolly folk
- lithocarpus 1y ago
  Many if not most businesses involve lots of ethical decisions where you have to choose between taking advantage of people or making less money. Depending on one's values though I'd see something similar in some modern conventional farming where the land is being degraded, but there's still the righteousness that you are feeding people so it's justified. There are ways to farm and some other kinds of businesses too that are win win for everyone involved. They're generally not the most short term profitable. Or even in-one-lifetime profitable.
  - lithocarpus 1y ago
    I should clarify that I mean directly financially profitable. Obviously growing good food even if you lose money at it means people including your family and friends get to eat good food which has other benefits than cash.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - moate 1y ago
    I think "insular rural folk" are often literate enough to see highfalutin dick-bags like yourself coming and don't want to be associated with that level of disdainful pretense. I work in project management for a massive multi-national, about as "businessy business" as you can get, and my moon-shining, hog-raising cousins give me shit for being a sellout (we grew up showing and milking cows together) but we all still can sense a vibe about "certain types from the big city" that's more about respect and shared culture that any sort of financial, social, political, or other illiteracy/incompetence.
- jjtheblunt 1y ago
  I'm from Illinois at the edge of farmland, which rotates corn and soy. I therefore wondered if it refers to this, a disease of corn...or if it was just a coincidental use of the word. https://www.nature.com/articles/srep43818.pdf?error=cookies_not_supported&code=9a354360-f644-44cc-9687-5091cf188e2b https://www.nature.com/articles/srep43818.pdf?error=cookies_...
jckahn 1y ago
I imagine there's some satisfaction in feeding people that money can't buy.
- TimorousBestie 1y ago
  There’s an exceedingly strong cultural drive to keep farmland “in the family” even if it impoverishes or otherwise inconveniences the descendants. I had a coworker once who lives in this region and owns some amount of farmland in a similar situation. He could have sold it and moved his family to <insert modest paradise here, in his case Florida> at any point; even now I think it would be easily done, if not as easy as in the past. But of course he still lives there, immiserating himself to keep the farm barely viable and working a second job to provide a livable salary. Why? Because selling it would offend his dead father’s pride.
  - threatofrain 1y ago
    I know someone in a similar position. Had a spirit more meant for tech, pursued it, but has to keep thinking about what to do about the family farm business. I think it's the same for any kind of family business, there's a sense of failure if you're the generation to close it down.
  - bombcar 1y ago
    There's opportunities for the right person out there, I've seen it a few times - young man (or woman) who wants to run a farm or rural business or whatnot, either marries into the family or becomes "basically adopted" and inherits the business or farm. You have tons of businesses that are viable (produce enough money to support a family) as long as you never load it with debt; because they do NOT produce enough to support a family and the debt load that would come from buying it. So they're unsaleable.
    - gopher_space 1y ago
      > You have tons of businesses that are viable (produce enough money to support a family) as long as you never load it with debt; because they do NOT produce enough to support a family and the debt load that would come from buying it. I've been thinking about this situation as "the bakery trap". The labor dimension here is that the best possible career move for the person you've spent the past n years training is to immediately leave once they've mastered your hot-cross bun recipe.
dismalaf 1y ago
Land can be financed over long periods and held forever. So a few hundred grand will pay off $5 million in about 20 years and then that's steady income forever after (as long as you keep farming).
- lotsofpulp 1y ago
  Land can’t be financed, businesses can be financed. Businesses that own land are much more easily financed, with the lowest interest rates. When you buy land to develop, you have to pony up cash for it. I have never heard of a lender lending without a cash flow producing asset as collateral.
  - dismalaf 1y ago
    You've got it backwards. Hard assets like land, buildings (aka. your house), machinery (a tractor or your car) are all much easier to finance than businesses. A simple Google search gives a wealth of resources for someone looking to finance (aka. mortgage) land and/or property for a farm. https://www.farmcreditil.com/Products/farm-loans https://www.farmcreditil.com/Products/farm-loans There's even government grants and loans to help: https://www.fsa.usda.gov/resources/farm-loan-programs/farm-ownership-loans https://www.fsa.usda.gov/resources/farm-loan-programs/farm-o... Edit - we're on HN. If you'd ever tried to get a business loan you'd know it's near impossible for a new business without 100% collateral, which is why the entire venture capital business, and HN, even exists...
    - lotsofpulp 1y ago
      My point is those hard assets have to be used for a business, not for price speculation (as far as I know). Your second link says: >Farm Ownership Loans offer up to 100 percent financing and are a valuable resource to help farmers and ranchers purchase or enlarge family farms, improve and expand current operations, increase agricultural productivity, and assist with land tenure to save farmland for future generations. What is "assist with land tenure to save farmland for future generations"? Is that speculating for future price increase?

appreciatorBus 1y ago

> the ick that comes with running other businesses Also non-judgmental curious question: what is this "ick" related to non-farming businesses?

fundad 1y ago
I think it's the way the original poster looks down people running other businesses.
9rx 1y ago
I own both a farm business and non-farm business. I feel the "ick" he talks about. I don't know how to exactly describe it, but I'd suggest it has to do with more autonomy in non-farming businesses, where you are always trying to balance between trying to make the business work and not taking advantage of people. Or if you end up taking advantage of people... In farming, it is all laid out for you. Prices are already set in Chicago. The buyer is always there. You grow the product, deliver it, and that's that. These days, with the way technology has gone, you might not even interact with another person in the process.
- dataflow 1y ago
  > I don't know how to exactly describe it, but I'd suggest it has to do with more autonomy in non-farming businesses, where you are always trying to balance between trying to make the business work and not taking advantage of people. Or if you end up taking advantage of people... What about all the non-organic farming, use of pesticides/antibiotics/etc., poor treatment of animals (sometimes), water waste in some cases (like almonds in CA), being beholden to & inevitably supporting the wonderful companies that are John Deere and Monsanto, having to use proprietary seeds and IP for such a basic human need, etc.? Some of our largest problems on the planet trace back to modern industrial farming. To be clear, I love and respect farmers a ton, my comment isn't about them at all. They're amazing and hardworking and anybody in the the business would be dealing with the same problems. I'm just talking about the purity of the business itself that you're talking about. The idea that the job is somehow so morally pure compared to all the other jobs baffles me. Your average local job (waiter, cashier, postal delivery worker, janitor, etc.) would seem to have a much more direct positive and impact on people's happiness and much less of an opportunity to take advantage of other beings, as you put it.
  - 9rx 1y ago
    > What about... That is all much the same as the prices being set in Chicago: Someone else has made the decision. While someone else no doubt feels the "ick", I am but the customer who is being taken advantage of. (Well, except in the case of Monsanto — they closed up shop years ago) > Your average local job (waiter... It seems you, deep down, even understand that. Comparing farming to being a waiter as opposed to the restaurant owner, I feel, is a pretty good portrayal of the difference and it is telling that you chose that point of comparison. Technically farming is like owning the restaurant, but in practice, because everything is laid out for you and decisions are made elsewhere, it feels more like being the waiter. You are layers removed from the "ick".
    - ethbr1 1y ago
      To the whataboutism, at the end of the day a farmer has a physical product they can look at, and they know the land it came from. There’s a certain satisfaction there that most people don’t get out of their ‘cog somewhere in the middle of a machine’ jobs.
      - 9rx 1y ago
        Both my farm and non-farm businesses have a physical product, though. In fact, in both cases the product is food, as it happens. I expect the farm business is less "icky" because it is entirely dehumanized. You don't set the price, you don't have to win over customers, and increasingly with more and more automation you don't even interact with the customer at all. There is no "Poor service. 0 stars." or "Too expensive! Scam." to contend with.
    - dataflow 1y ago
      > Technically farming is like owning the restaurant, but in practice, because everything is laid out for you and decisions are made elsewhere, it feels more like being the waiter. You are layers removed from the "ick". To be blunt: I don't buy this... at all. Farmers have (in theory, and to some extent in practice) choice in (a) what they grow, (b) whether to grow organic/GMO/etc., (c) what pesticides/fertilizers/etc. they use and how much, (d) how they treat any animals they have, (e) whom they sell to... I could go on. Of course competition and supply and demand constrain what they can do, but that's true for most if not all business owners, including restaurant owners. Waiters are not* like this... at all. They have -- by definition of their jobs -- zero control over the dishes, the recipe, the cooking, what is ordered, whom to serve, etc. Therefore the idea that "technically" the farmer is like the restaurant owner but "in practice" like the waiter therefore makes no sense to me. They are (extremely) more similar to the restaurant owner in basically every dimension, not just "theoretically".
arbor_day 1y ago
There’s something righteous in farming where it’s really hard to feel like you’re doing wrong even if you’re getting rich — you are just feeding people. It’s like being a doctor.
- skeezyboy 1y ago
  its why farmers are always such jolly folk
lithocarpus 1y ago
Many if not most businesses involve lots of ethical decisions where you have to choose between taking advantage of people or making less money. Depending on one's values though I'd see something similar in some modern conventional farming where the land is being degraded, but there's still the righteousness that you are feeding people so it's justified. There are ways to farm and some other kinds of businesses too that are win win for everyone involved. They're generally not the most short term profitable. Or even in-one-lifetime profitable.
- lithocarpus 1y ago
  I should clarify that I mean directly financially profitable. Obviously growing good food even if you lose money at it means people including your family and friends get to eat good food which has other benefits than cash.
potato3732842 1y ago
[flagged]
- moate 1y ago
  I think "insular rural folk" are often literate enough to see highfalutin dick-bags like yourself coming and don't want to be associated with that level of disdainful pretense. I work in project management for a massive multi-national, about as "businessy business" as you can get, and my moon-shining, hog-raising cousins give me shit for being a sellout (we grew up showing and milking cows together) but we all still can sense a vibe about "certain types from the big city" that's more about respect and shared culture that any sort of financial, social, political, or other illiteracy/incompetence.
jjtheblunt 1y ago
I'm from Illinois at the edge of farmland, which rotates corn and soy. I therefore wondered if it refers to this, a disease of corn...or if it was just a coincidental use of the word. https://www.nature.com/articles/srep43818.pdf?error=cookies_not_supported&code=9a354360-f644-44cc-9687-5091cf188e2b https://www.nature.com/articles/srep43818.pdf?error=cookies_...

jckahn 1y ago

I imagine there's some satisfaction in feeding people that money can't buy.

TimorousBestie 1y ago
There’s an exceedingly strong cultural drive to keep farmland “in the family” even if it impoverishes or otherwise inconveniences the descendants. I had a coworker once who lives in this region and owns some amount of farmland in a similar situation. He could have sold it and moved his family to <insert modest paradise here, in his case Florida> at any point; even now I think it would be easily done, if not as easy as in the past. But of course he still lives there, immiserating himself to keep the farm barely viable and working a second job to provide a livable salary. Why? Because selling it would offend his dead father’s pride.
- threatofrain 1y ago
  I know someone in a similar position. Had a spirit more meant for tech, pursued it, but has to keep thinking about what to do about the family farm business. I think it's the same for any kind of family business, there's a sense of failure if you're the generation to close it down.
- bombcar 1y ago
  There's opportunities for the right person out there, I've seen it a few times - young man (or woman) who wants to run a farm or rural business or whatnot, either marries into the family or becomes "basically adopted" and inherits the business or farm. You have tons of businesses that are viable (produce enough money to support a family) as long as you never load it with debt; because they do NOT produce enough to support a family and the debt load that would come from buying it. So they're unsaleable.
  - gopher_space 1y ago
    > You have tons of businesses that are viable (produce enough money to support a family) as long as you never load it with debt; because they do NOT produce enough to support a family and the debt load that would come from buying it. I've been thinking about this situation as "the bakery trap". The labor dimension here is that the best possible career move for the person you've spent the past n years training is to immediately leave once they've mastered your hot-cross bun recipe.

dismalaf 1y ago

Land can be financed over long periods and held forever. So a few hundred grand will pay off $5 million in about 20 years and then that's steady income forever after (as long as you keep farming).

lotsofpulp 1y ago
Land can’t be financed, businesses can be financed. Businesses that own land are much more easily financed, with the lowest interest rates. When you buy land to develop, you have to pony up cash for it. I have never heard of a lender lending without a cash flow producing asset as collateral.
- dismalaf 1y ago
  You've got it backwards. Hard assets like land, buildings (aka. your house), machinery (a tractor or your car) are all much easier to finance than businesses. A simple Google search gives a wealth of resources for someone looking to finance (aka. mortgage) land and/or property for a farm. https://www.farmcreditil.com/Products/farm-loans https://www.farmcreditil.com/Products/farm-loans There's even government grants and loans to help: https://www.fsa.usda.gov/resources/farm-loan-programs/farm-ownership-loans https://www.fsa.usda.gov/resources/farm-loan-programs/farm-o... Edit - we're on HN. If you'd ever tried to get a business loan you'd know it's near impossible for a new business without 100% collateral, which is why the entire venture capital business, and HN, even exists...
  - lotsofpulp 1y ago
    My point is those hard assets have to be used for a business, not for price speculation (as far as I know). Your second link says: >Farm Ownership Loans offer up to 100 percent financing and are a valuable resource to help farmers and ranchers purchase or enlarge family farms, improve and expand current operations, increase agricultural productivity, and assist with land tenure to save farmland for future generations. What is "assist with land tenure to save farmland for future generations"? Is that speculating for future price increase?