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Take a look at the Super73 mentioned in the piece: It has pedals directly connected to a chain. That's the difference between a motorcycle and an e-bike, not sp

by rib3ye 1y ago

Take a look at the Super73 mentioned in the piece: It has pedals directly connected to a chain. That's the difference between a motorcycle and an e-bike, not speed. Edit: I am not saying these things aren't crazy fast and dangerous, but if you go into an electric motorcycle store and they try to sell you an e-bike with a pedal assist, it's obvious they are not the same thing. The form-factor is just different.

skeeter2020 1y ago
This is not true, and may fool a casual glance but legally is not classified as a bicycle. The difference is if it has a throttle or is pedal assist. No one is hitting 30 mph on these things without a throttle
- toast0 1y ago
  Pedal assist can almost certainly be tuned to get you to 30 mph if the motor can do it. I've used a few e-bikes, and the nice ones have pedal assist that has good feel, but the less expensive ones have pedal assist that's a janky throttle with more steps. I understand the motivation for requiring pedal assist rather than a throttle, but the motor speed cutout is the important bit. If I can put it in easy gear and pedal to operate the throttle while the chain is freewheeling the whole time, the pedals are just a throttle I operate with my feet; I'm not actually providing any of the energy for locomotion.
  - namibj 1y ago
    The typical premium/brand-name e-bike in Germany AFAIK uses torque sensing u to electronically transform the apparent weight of the loaded vehicle (more acceleration for the same felt/pedaled force), which seems to benefit nuanced control.
- senkora 1y ago
  I have an (unmodified) Super73. There is a mode selection between pedal assist and throttle. You can hit 28mph with only pedal assist.
zaphar 1y ago
That may be the official technical definition but in practice speed is the real reason for dividing between bicycle and motorcycle and moped. It's also the primary reason we require licenses for some and not for others.
shkkmo 1y ago
> That's the difference between a motorcycle and an e-bike, not speed. Not legally. I would argue that the presence of pedals matters much less than the power and weight of the device when it comes to how it should be regulated. Power and weight are what create the risks that the laws exist to regulate. If you have an ~80 pound device with hardware that can do >40mph on flat ground, it should not regulated like a bicycle. Edit: To make my point clearer, I think the focus on top speed in a bit of a red herring. High speeds can be achieved on anything with enough hill/drafting/etc. The rate at which the object can gain kinetic energy is what matters. Devices that gain kinetic energy quickly are much more dangerous to operate. Thus the combination of Power x Weight is what the regulations should focus on. There is such a plethora and proliferation of different device types, any other type of distinction can't keep up and will either leave safety gaps or unnecessarily curtail critical innovation in personal transport technology.
- rib3ye 1y ago
  But in every state except Connecticut, it is regulated like a bicycle.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
arp242 1y ago
Super73's own webpage advertises it as a "high performance electric motorbike". I don't know what the strict legal definition is and I'll take your word for it that "pedals directly connected to a chain" is the one. However, for all intents and purposes in every-day conversation, "electric motorcycle" seems accurate to me. These things are between 27 and 37kg, depending on the model. You can cycle them, but it's obviously not really intended to any normal use. The chain is a useful backup (or perhaps a legal loophole, or maybe a bit of both). I think that legal definition is perhaps outdated and should be updated.
- ryandrake 1y ago
  Whenever you rely on some strict legal definition of a "thing," you're going to have enterprising people make that "thing" not be a "thing" by walking right up to the legal line but just barely not crossing it. This discussion reminds me of the clever ways gun manufacturers get around California's "fixed mag" gun laws to make California-legal AR-15s: When you separate the upper and lower receiver, what you have is technically no longer a gun. Therefore, the mag can be removable from that thing that is definitely not-a-gun. So all the gun manufacturer has to do is provide a mechanism that quickly allows you to separate the upper and lower receivers, reload the mag, and then quickly re-connect the receivers. Skilled shooters can do this in under a second.

by rib3ye 1y ago

skeeter2020 1y ago

This is not true, and may fool a casual glance but legally is not classified as a bicycle. The difference is if it has a throttle or is pedal assist. No one is hitting 30 mph on these things without a throttle

toast0 1y ago
Pedal assist can almost certainly be tuned to get you to 30 mph if the motor can do it. I've used a few e-bikes, and the nice ones have pedal assist that has good feel, but the less expensive ones have pedal assist that's a janky throttle with more steps. I understand the motivation for requiring pedal assist rather than a throttle, but the motor speed cutout is the important bit. If I can put it in easy gear and pedal to operate the throttle while the chain is freewheeling the whole time, the pedals are just a throttle I operate with my feet; I'm not actually providing any of the energy for locomotion.
- namibj 1y ago
  The typical premium/brand-name e-bike in Germany AFAIK uses torque sensing u to electronically transform the apparent weight of the loaded vehicle (more acceleration for the same felt/pedaled force), which seems to benefit nuanced control.
senkora 1y ago
I have an (unmodified) Super73. There is a mode selection between pedal assist and throttle. You can hit 28mph with only pedal assist.

zaphar 1y ago

That may be the official technical definition but in practice speed is the real reason for dividing between bicycle and motorcycle and moped. It's also the primary reason we require licenses for some and not for others.

shkkmo 1y ago

> That's the difference between a motorcycle and an e-bike, not speed. Not legally. I would argue that the presence of pedals matters much less than the power and weight of the device when it comes to how it should be regulated. Power and weight are what create the risks that the laws exist to regulate. If you have an ~80 pound device with hardware that can do >40mph on flat ground, it should not regulated like a bicycle. Edit: To make my point clearer, I think the focus on top speed in a bit of a red herring. High speeds can be achieved on anything with enough hill/drafting/etc. The rate at which the object can gain kinetic energy is what matters. Devices that gain kinetic energy quickly are much more dangerous to operate. Thus the combination of Power x Weight is what the regulations should focus on. There is such a plethora and proliferation of different device types, any other type of distinction can't keep up and will either leave safety gaps or unnecessarily curtail critical innovation in personal transport technology.

rib3ye 1y ago
But in every state except Connecticut, it is regulated like a bicycle.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

arp242 1y ago

Super73's own webpage advertises it as a "high performance electric motorbike". I don't know what the strict legal definition is and I'll take your word for it that "pedals directly connected to a chain" is the one. However, for all intents and purposes in every-day conversation, "electric motorcycle" seems accurate to me. These things are between 27 and 37kg, depending on the model. You can cycle them, but it's obviously not really intended to any normal use. The chain is a useful backup (or perhaps a legal loophole, or maybe a bit of both). I think that legal definition is perhaps outdated and should be updated.

ryandrake 1y ago
Whenever you rely on some strict legal definition of a "thing," you're going to have enterprising people make that "thing" not be a "thing" by walking right up to the legal line but just barely not crossing it. This discussion reminds me of the clever ways gun manufacturers get around California's "fixed mag" gun laws to make California-legal AR-15s: When you separate the upper and lower receiver, what you have is technically no longer a gun. Therefore, the mag can be removable from that thing that is definitely not-a-gun. So all the gun manufacturer has to do is provide a mechanism that quickly allows you to separate the upper and lower receivers, reload the mag, and then quickly re-connect the receivers. Skilled shooters can do this in under a second.