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This shooting occurred in the West Bank, which is not controlled by Hamas. What's your redline? Is there any action that Israel can take that you won't justify

This shooting occurred in the West Bank, which is not controlled by Hamas. What's your redline? Is there any action that Israel can take that you won't justify?

wonderwonder 1y ago
The post I replied to was referencing genocide in Gaza. [Its been flagged, I can't post the text] If a terrorist group raped and murdered your wife and took your children is there a line in the sand that you would not want your government to cross to get them back? Would you be willing for your government to kill 2 innocents to get back your 3 kids? What about 10 innocents? What about 100? 1000? Is there a number where you would say "my kids lives just aren't worth it, let them die alone and abandoned by me in the tunnels"? For me there is not, if a million had to die to get my children back then so be it. That is the view point I look at this war from. Hamas murdered, raped, tortured and kidnapped a thousand people. They did it on camera and laughed and celebrated the entire time. The people in Gaza welcomed them back as heroes. The government should do whatever is required to ensure it never happens again and that those still held are returned. Its what I would want my government to do.
- carefulfungi 1y ago
  Collective punishment and mass starvation of children violates my morality and is not an action I want my government to take in any circumstance. I also speculate that it will be ineffective at preventing future violence. Feelings like yours work in both directions - the residents of Gaza, by your point of view, are equally justified to kill more Israelis to avenge the violence being done to them today.
  - wonderwonder 1y ago
    So to be clear because I want you to say it: There is a line at which you would tell the government to stop and let your children die and allow the rape and murder of your wife to go unpunished. Or is it safe to assume you are unmarried and have no children? If you do have kids then every time you look them in the eye you should acknowledge that you would let them die due to your morality. Which if true, that's fine. We are just looking at life and family from 2 completely alien perspectives. There is literally nothing I would not do to get my kids back. "the residents of Gaza, by your point of view, are equally justified to kill more Israelis to avenge the violence being done to them today" Sure, and then the Israeli government should punish them to an even greater extent. Or the people of Gaza should rage against the group that unleashed this punishment on them, Hamas. the same group they voted on to lead them.
    - carefulfungi 1y ago
      That's correct. I would not kill a million unarmed people and hundreds of thousands of children, or ask someone else to do it for me, to compel the return of my family.
      - wonderwonder 1y ago
        Do you have children?
        carefulfungi 1y ago
        Yes. And I don't teach them to cause unlimited suffering for their own benefit.
        wonderwonder 1y ago
        Of course you don't teach your kids that, never said you should. I would hope that you don't tell them that if it comes down to them or someone else then you would save someone else. I have always considered my primary job in life is to ensure my children are safe, no matter what. We differ there. Your viewpoint is utterly alien to me. I wish you well and will call this conversation. All the best.
- WaxProlix 1y ago
  Do you feel that way about the last time Israel broke ceasefire in operation Cast Lead, which resulted in similar civilian vs combatant deaths? Maybe no amount of punishment is enough for the evil on the other side? It's not a helpful frame to think in tbh, because now you get to look at the considerably more evil thing done by Israel and justify - what - a chemical weapons attack or something against its citizens? Let's just stop the killing first
  - wonderwonder 1y ago
    Agree, and the only way to stop the killing is for Hamas to return the hostages. There is literally no other way for it to happen, no matter what anyone says, that is the only way. Everything else is rhetoric and not grounded in reality. I'm under no illusion that Israel has clean hands here.
    - cess11 1y ago
      Israel could have gotten the captives back within a week or two from October 7th but refused, likely because this wasn't a popular opinion among jewish israelis at the time. It still isn't, and even if there was a captive exchange the political mainstream in Israel would not retreat from the occupation of the Gaza strip, just as they aren't going to end the occupations in East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Lebanon or Syria, unless forced to do so by other states.

This shooting occurred in the West Bank, which is not controlled by Hamas. What's your redline? Is there any action that Israel can take that you won't justify?

wonderwonder 1y ago

The post I replied to was referencing genocide in Gaza. [Its been flagged, I can't post the text] If a terrorist group raped and murdered your wife and took your children is there a line in the sand that you would not want your government to cross to get them back? Would you be willing for your government to kill 2 innocents to get back your 3 kids? What about 10 innocents? What about 100? 1000? Is there a number where you would say "my kids lives just aren't worth it, let them die alone and abandoned by me in the tunnels"? For me there is not, if a million had to die to get my children back then so be it. That is the view point I look at this war from. Hamas murdered, raped, tortured and kidnapped a thousand people. They did it on camera and laughed and celebrated the entire time. The people in Gaza welcomed them back as heroes. The government should do whatever is required to ensure it never happens again and that those still held are returned. Its what I would want my government to do.

carefulfungi 1y ago
Collective punishment and mass starvation of children violates my morality and is not an action I want my government to take in any circumstance. I also speculate that it will be ineffective at preventing future violence. Feelings like yours work in both directions - the residents of Gaza, by your point of view, are equally justified to kill more Israelis to avenge the violence being done to them today.
- wonderwonder 1y ago
  So to be clear because I want you to say it: There is a line at which you would tell the government to stop and let your children die and allow the rape and murder of your wife to go unpunished. Or is it safe to assume you are unmarried and have no children? If you do have kids then every time you look them in the eye you should acknowledge that you would let them die due to your morality. Which if true, that's fine. We are just looking at life and family from 2 completely alien perspectives. There is literally nothing I would not do to get my kids back. "the residents of Gaza, by your point of view, are equally justified to kill more Israelis to avenge the violence being done to them today" Sure, and then the Israeli government should punish them to an even greater extent. Or the people of Gaza should rage against the group that unleashed this punishment on them, Hamas. the same group they voted on to lead them.
  - carefulfungi 1y ago
    That's correct. I would not kill a million unarmed people and hundreds of thousands of children, or ask someone else to do it for me, to compel the return of my family.
    - wonderwonder 1y ago
      Do you have children?
      - carefulfungi 1y ago
        Yes. And I don't teach them to cause unlimited suffering for their own benefit.
        wonderwonder 1y ago
        Of course you don't teach your kids that, never said you should. I would hope that you don't tell them that if it comes down to them or someone else then you would save someone else. I have always considered my primary job in life is to ensure my children are safe, no matter what. We differ there. Your viewpoint is utterly alien to me. I wish you well and will call this conversation. All the best.
WaxProlix 1y ago
Do you feel that way about the last time Israel broke ceasefire in operation Cast Lead, which resulted in similar civilian vs combatant deaths? Maybe no amount of punishment is enough for the evil on the other side? It's not a helpful frame to think in tbh, because now you get to look at the considerably more evil thing done by Israel and justify - what - a chemical weapons attack or something against its citizens? Let's just stop the killing first
- wonderwonder 1y ago
  Agree, and the only way to stop the killing is for Hamas to return the hostages. There is literally no other way for it to happen, no matter what anyone says, that is the only way. Everything else is rhetoric and not grounded in reality. I'm under no illusion that Israel has clean hands here.
  - cess11 1y ago
    Israel could have gotten the captives back within a week or two from October 7th but refused, likely because this wasn't a popular opinion among jewish israelis at the time. It still isn't, and even if there was a captive exchange the political mainstream in Israel would not retreat from the occupation of the Gaza strip, just as they aren't going to end the occupations in East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Lebanon or Syria, unless forced to do so by other states.