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> UNRWA The one that has a unique definiton of 'refugee' that doesn't correspond with UNs the normal definition of the term? Where many of the staff work for H

by nailer 1y ago

> UNRWA The one that has a unique definiton of 'refugee' that doesn't correspond with UNs the normal definition of the term? Where many of the staff work for Hamas? Where their schools teach children to be martyrs? The one many countries have halted funding for because of this? If you want the UN, fine, UNHCR, the normal UN refugee agency.

bigyabai 1y ago
Since when did the UN's definitions start mattering to Israel, all of the sudden? That's a new development I haven't heard yet, tell me more about it.
- nailer 1y ago
  UNRWAs definition is different from UNHCR because it allows them to claim buildings in Gaza are ‘refugee camps’ and to claim refugee status for people who are safely resettled.
  - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
    Refugee camps in Palestine are distinct from normal city blocks. They are extremely crowded areas that were never meant to be permanent. If Israel had allowed the civilian population that it expelled at its founding to return home, then the camps would not have become permanent. But Israel refuses, because the refugees are Arab, and Israel is an ethno-religiously defined country.
    - nailer 1y ago
      Refugee camps are permanent buildings and the only distinction is that they are called refugee camp for a made up definition of the term of refugee that is completely distinct from UNHCR, that’s how you know that these people are not refugees. if you don’t know that these people are not refugees do more research on UNRWA and UNHCR and then stop telling people that they are refugees when they are not refugees. gaza isn’t cramped you silly person, You can jump on TikTok or Instagram right now and see people having fun in cafés car dealerships and restaurants. you could also confirm that Arabs in Israel which are 20% of the population have more rights than arabs in any Arab country - there are Arab members of Parliament talking to other members of Parliament in Arabic in Parliament. Meanwhile, Arabs in most other states can’t even pick their own leaders, be gay, or leave islam safely. Is Israel, despite being more diverse than any other country in the middle east, the only ethno religious state you dislike or do you really hate the 22 arab states too (and presumably the 23rd arab state you are proposing)? Why is that?
      - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
        > Refugee camps are permanent buildings and the only distinction is that they are called refugee camp You can identify them from satellite images. They're extremely dense, squalid knots inside Palestinian cities that were never meant to be permanent. > made up definition of the term of refugee The Palestinians are refugees by any reasonable definition. They were kicked out of their homes by Israel, forced to flee, and have been stateless ever since. > gaza isn’t cramped you silly person, You can jump on TikTok or Instagram right now and see people having fun in cafés car dealerships and restaurants. Most buildings in Gaza have been leveled. You're like a person in 1943 who believes Nazi propaganda about how the Warsaw Ghetto is actually great. > you could also confirm that Arabs in Israel which are 20% of the population have more rights than arabs in any Arab country You're ignoring the millions of Arabs (called "Palestinians") who live under Israeli rule with no rights whatsoever. They can even be killed by Israeli settlers or soldiers with no consequences. > Why is that? You're so close to calling me an antisemite. Why not just say what you mean. And then I'll laugh in your face and inform you about my own background. This may be difficult to fathom, but most people are disgusted by seeing Israel's mass murder of Palestinians. Calling people antisemites isn't going to work anymore.
        nailer 1y ago
        [flagged]
        DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
        > Yes because they're buildings. You're not reading what I'm writing. They're visible as extremely dense areas, similar to the notorious "walled city" that used to exist inside Kowloon. > They are not by UNHCR's definition. They are actually refugees by the UNHCR's definition. Refugee status also applies to families of people who are expelled. The key element is whether their situation has changed so that they are no longer in exile, displaced, stateless, etc. The Palestinians are still all of those things. > As discussed, Ben Gurion encouraged Arabs to stay and peacefully join the new state, which is a matter of history and evidenced by Israel's large Arab population. Arab leaders told their people to leave the warzone, which is also documented history. "no u" is not an adequate response. This is just completely delusional. Of all the people you could have chosen to make this argument about, Ben Gurion is the absolute last person you should choose. He is on the record many times as having supported "transfer," which was the term used back then for what we would now call "ethnic cleansing." There are many quotes from him on the subject. Here is one from 1937, as translated by Benny Morris: "We do not want to dispossess, [but piecemeal] transfer of population [through Jewish purchase and the removal of Arab tenant farmers] occurred previously, in the [Jezreel] Valley, in the Sharon and in other places ... Now a transfer of a completely different scope will have to be carried out ... Transfer is what will make possible a comprehensive [Jewish] settlement programme. Thankfully, the Arab people have vast empty areas [in Transjordan and Iraq]. Jewish power, which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out the transfer on a large scale." And of course, in 1947-48, he actually oversaw the mass expulsion of 80% of the Arab population of the territory that became Israel. Even after the war, Ben Gurion oversaw the passage of the "present absentee" laws that were used to continue expelling Arab civilians from Israel. The reason why there's an Arab minority in Israel today is because the expulsion was not complete. Without the mass expulsions of 1947-48, Israel would never have had anything remotely approaching a Jewish majority in the first place. > lol I just showed you what Arabs are posting from Gaza about their lives and you're still pretending I haven't done that. First, anyone who has seen any of the images coming out of Gaza knows that your whole "they're enjoying cafes" line is cynical and absurd. Over a thousand Palestinians have been killed at the food distribution sites, and yet hundreds of thousands of Palestinians continue to regularly risk their lives just to get small boxes of food. Second, the way you regularly refer to them as them "Arabs" instead of "Palestinians" is a dead giveaway that you're a racist. > You're a deeply silly person that belives easily disproven conspiracy theories about Jewish people. I'm Jewish, so you'll have to find a different line of attack. > No I am not. Those arabs aren't in Israel. Those live outside Israel They live under Israeli rule, surrounded by Israeli settlements and military checkpoints. They functionally live inside Israel. If you go there, the Israeli soldiers will even tell you that you are in Israel. That's how they see it. > You are either racist or simply believe racist propaganda, which is fairly commom as a member of the far left. Your background doesn't change anything, identity politics are for the intellectually weak. It's funny how you still want to continue the "you're an antisemite" line of attack, even knowing that you're talking to a Jewish person. You really don't have any better arguments. > Of course they would be, but you made up those images. Again, your cynicism is off the charts.
fahhem 1y ago
What percentage of their staff works for Hamas? What's the proof they work for Hamas? Israel has provided 0 proof, only allegations, and even then it's only a handful of people in an organization of tens of thousands. That's literally better than the ratio of rapist to citizen in Israel. Numbers for proof: Israel claims 12 out of 30k (13k in Gaza), but the UN says only 9 "may have been involved". That's 0.1% of Palestinians in Gaza. There are 1.3k Israeli rapists in prison (not including the ones that fled the US to avoid prison) and 80% of rape allegations are closed without investigation. That's 0.1% of Israelis.
- nailer 1y ago
  What do you mean by no proof? UNRWA has admitted that many of their staff members participated in Hamas attacks, they just dispute the amount. I’m sure you probably can guess it’s probably a large amount as the school systemically teach children to be martyrs - ie UNRWA openly supports terrorism - and you can easily confirm that for yourself.
  - fahhem 1y ago
    I mean the provided no proof to anyone, UNRWA did their own investigation and said "maybe". That's not conclusive, that's "we can't prove otherwise and we want to still be let in". Little did they know Israel was going to attack them all anyway.
    - nailer 1y ago
      > UNRWA did their own investigation and said "maybe". That's not conclusive OK. If I ran a supoposed aid organization and someone unjustly accused my staff of being terrorists, I wouldn't say "maybe" but you do you.
      - fahhem 1y ago
        It's tough to investigate during an invasion and subsequent siege and genocide, no? Let in some western journalists and you'll get a lot of those facts that are currently hard to come by.
DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
The Palestinian refugee problem is fairly unique in the modern world to begin with. Israel is arguably the last colonial state to be founded, at a time when colonialism was on the way out. The Israelis expelled a massive number of people into the surrounding countries, and have since refused to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes, which are inside what is now Israel. The Palestinians naturally want to return home, and the neighboring countries do not want to provide for millions of refugees created by Israel, so the Palestinians are in permanent limbo. The obvious solution would be for Israel to allow the Palestinians to return home, and to pay for their resettlement. But Israel refuses to do that, because the entire idea behind Israel is that the country must have a decisive Jewish majority. As for your various accusations against UNRWA, they're just a rehash of the standard Israeli propaganda against the agency. The actual reason why Israel dislikes UNRWA is because the existence of Palestinian refugees is a problem for Israel.
- nailer 1y ago
  > The Israelis expelled a massive number of people into the surrounding countries, and have since refused to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes, which are inside what is now Israel. A huge part of the Exodus was the Arab league telling Arabs to leave their homes in 1948 while they destroyed the new Jewish state, because they didn’t just want Jordan and the proposed second Arab state from British Palestine they wanted everything from the river to the sea, which probably would’ve destroyed all the jewish people (witness all the violence pre-1948 from Arabs to Jews). Meanwhile, contrary to arab nationalist claims, ben gurion asked Arabs to stay and peacefully join the new country which is why Israel is 20% Arab. The other thing you’ve omitted is the greater number of Jews that were expelled from Arab states. you haven’t asked for them to be able to return either, but it’s probably not a good idea as they would be killed, as is typical for anybody who doesn’t follow or has left Islam in Arabic countries. Witness the current genocide against the druze people in Syria. saying my points are a rehash of standard propaganda is silly: anyone can verify that we know UNRWA staff are members of hamas, that UNRWA facilities are routinely used by Hamas, that UNRWA schools teach children to desire to be martyrs and that UNRWA has a different definition of refugee than UNHCR. The very obvious solution is UNRWA should be disbanded.

by nailer 1y ago

bigyabai 1y ago

Since when did the UN's definitions start mattering to Israel, all of the sudden? That's a new development I haven't heard yet, tell me more about it.

nailer 1y ago
UNRWAs definition is different from UNHCR because it allows them to claim buildings in Gaza are ‘refugee camps’ and to claim refugee status for people who are safely resettled.
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  Refugee camps in Palestine are distinct from normal city blocks. They are extremely crowded areas that were never meant to be permanent. If Israel had allowed the civilian population that it expelled at its founding to return home, then the camps would not have become permanent. But Israel refuses, because the refugees are Arab, and Israel is an ethno-religiously defined country.
  - nailer 1y ago
    Refugee camps are permanent buildings and the only distinction is that they are called refugee camp for a made up definition of the term of refugee that is completely distinct from UNHCR, that’s how you know that these people are not refugees. if you don’t know that these people are not refugees do more research on UNRWA and UNHCR and then stop telling people that they are refugees when they are not refugees. gaza isn’t cramped you silly person, You can jump on TikTok or Instagram right now and see people having fun in cafés car dealerships and restaurants. you could also confirm that Arabs in Israel which are 20% of the population have more rights than arabs in any Arab country - there are Arab members of Parliament talking to other members of Parliament in Arabic in Parliament. Meanwhile, Arabs in most other states can’t even pick their own leaders, be gay, or leave islam safely. Is Israel, despite being more diverse than any other country in the middle east, the only ethno religious state you dislike or do you really hate the 22 arab states too (and presumably the 23rd arab state you are proposing)? Why is that?
    - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
      > Refugee camps are permanent buildings and the only distinction is that they are called refugee camp You can identify them from satellite images. They're extremely dense, squalid knots inside Palestinian cities that were never meant to be permanent. > made up definition of the term of refugee The Palestinians are refugees by any reasonable definition. They were kicked out of their homes by Israel, forced to flee, and have been stateless ever since. > gaza isn’t cramped you silly person, You can jump on TikTok or Instagram right now and see people having fun in cafés car dealerships and restaurants. Most buildings in Gaza have been leveled. You're like a person in 1943 who believes Nazi propaganda about how the Warsaw Ghetto is actually great. > you could also confirm that Arabs in Israel which are 20% of the population have more rights than arabs in any Arab country You're ignoring the millions of Arabs (called "Palestinians") who live under Israeli rule with no rights whatsoever. They can even be killed by Israeli settlers or soldiers with no consequences. > Why is that? You're so close to calling me an antisemite. Why not just say what you mean. And then I'll laugh in your face and inform you about my own background. This may be difficult to fathom, but most people are disgusted by seeing Israel's mass murder of Palestinians. Calling people antisemites isn't going to work anymore.
      - nailer 1y ago
        [flagged]
        DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
        > Yes because they're buildings. You're not reading what I'm writing. They're visible as extremely dense areas, similar to the notorious "walled city" that used to exist inside Kowloon. > They are not by UNHCR's definition. They are actually refugees by the UNHCR's definition. Refugee status also applies to families of people who are expelled. The key element is whether their situation has changed so that they are no longer in exile, displaced, stateless, etc. The Palestinians are still all of those things. > As discussed, Ben Gurion encouraged Arabs to stay and peacefully join the new state, which is a matter of history and evidenced by Israel's large Arab population. Arab leaders told their people to leave the warzone, which is also documented history. "no u" is not an adequate response. This is just completely delusional. Of all the people you could have chosen to make this argument about, Ben Gurion is the absolute last person you should choose. He is on the record many times as having supported "transfer," which was the term used back then for what we would now call "ethnic cleansing." There are many quotes from him on the subject. Here is one from 1937, as translated by Benny Morris: "We do not want to dispossess, [but piecemeal] transfer of population [through Jewish purchase and the removal of Arab tenant farmers] occurred previously, in the [Jezreel] Valley, in the Sharon and in other places ... Now a transfer of a completely different scope will have to be carried out ... Transfer is what will make possible a comprehensive [Jewish] settlement programme. Thankfully, the Arab people have vast empty areas [in Transjordan and Iraq]. Jewish power, which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out the transfer on a large scale." And of course, in 1947-48, he actually oversaw the mass expulsion of 80% of the Arab population of the territory that became Israel. Even after the war, Ben Gurion oversaw the passage of the "present absentee" laws that were used to continue expelling Arab civilians from Israel. The reason why there's an Arab minority in Israel today is because the expulsion was not complete. Without the mass expulsions of 1947-48, Israel would never have had anything remotely approaching a Jewish majority in the first place. > lol I just showed you what Arabs are posting from Gaza about their lives and you're still pretending I haven't done that. First, anyone who has seen any of the images coming out of Gaza knows that your whole "they're enjoying cafes" line is cynical and absurd. Over a thousand Palestinians have been killed at the food distribution sites, and yet hundreds of thousands of Palestinians continue to regularly risk their lives just to get small boxes of food. Second, the way you regularly refer to them as them "Arabs" instead of "Palestinians" is a dead giveaway that you're a racist. > You're a deeply silly person that belives easily disproven conspiracy theories about Jewish people. I'm Jewish, so you'll have to find a different line of attack. > No I am not. Those arabs aren't in Israel. Those live outside Israel They live under Israeli rule, surrounded by Israeli settlements and military checkpoints. They functionally live inside Israel. If you go there, the Israeli soldiers will even tell you that you are in Israel. That's how they see it. > You are either racist or simply believe racist propaganda, which is fairly commom as a member of the far left. Your background doesn't change anything, identity politics are for the intellectually weak. It's funny how you still want to continue the "you're an antisemite" line of attack, even knowing that you're talking to a Jewish person. You really don't have any better arguments. > Of course they would be, but you made up those images. Again, your cynicism is off the charts.

fahhem 1y ago

What percentage of their staff works for Hamas? What's the proof they work for Hamas? Israel has provided 0 proof, only allegations, and even then it's only a handful of people in an organization of tens of thousands. That's literally better than the ratio of rapist to citizen in Israel. Numbers for proof: Israel claims 12 out of 30k (13k in Gaza), but the UN says only 9 "may have been involved". That's 0.1% of Palestinians in Gaza. There are 1.3k Israeli rapists in prison (not including the ones that fled the US to avoid prison) and 80% of rape allegations are closed without investigation. That's 0.1% of Israelis.

nailer 1y ago
What do you mean by no proof? UNRWA has admitted that many of their staff members participated in Hamas attacks, they just dispute the amount. I’m sure you probably can guess it’s probably a large amount as the school systemically teach children to be martyrs - ie UNRWA openly supports terrorism - and you can easily confirm that for yourself.
- fahhem 1y ago
  I mean the provided no proof to anyone, UNRWA did their own investigation and said "maybe". That's not conclusive, that's "we can't prove otherwise and we want to still be let in". Little did they know Israel was going to attack them all anyway.
  - nailer 1y ago
    > UNRWA did their own investigation and said "maybe". That's not conclusive OK. If I ran a supoposed aid organization and someone unjustly accused my staff of being terrorists, I wouldn't say "maybe" but you do you.
    - fahhem 1y ago
      It's tough to investigate during an invasion and subsequent siege and genocide, no? Let in some western journalists and you'll get a lot of those facts that are currently hard to come by.

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago

The Palestinian refugee problem is fairly unique in the modern world to begin with. Israel is arguably the last colonial state to be founded, at a time when colonialism was on the way out. The Israelis expelled a massive number of people into the surrounding countries, and have since refused to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes, which are inside what is now Israel. The Palestinians naturally want to return home, and the neighboring countries do not want to provide for millions of refugees created by Israel, so the Palestinians are in permanent limbo. The obvious solution would be for Israel to allow the Palestinians to return home, and to pay for their resettlement. But Israel refuses to do that, because the entire idea behind Israel is that the country must have a decisive Jewish majority. As for your various accusations against UNRWA, they're just a rehash of the standard Israeli propaganda against the agency. The actual reason why Israel dislikes UNRWA is because the existence of Palestinian refugees is a problem for Israel.

nailer 1y ago
> The Israelis expelled a massive number of people into the surrounding countries, and have since refused to allow the Palestinians to return to their homes, which are inside what is now Israel. A huge part of the Exodus was the Arab league telling Arabs to leave their homes in 1948 while they destroyed the new Jewish state, because they didn’t just want Jordan and the proposed second Arab state from British Palestine they wanted everything from the river to the sea, which probably would’ve destroyed all the jewish people (witness all the violence pre-1948 from Arabs to Jews). Meanwhile, contrary to arab nationalist claims, ben gurion asked Arabs to stay and peacefully join the new country which is why Israel is 20% Arab. The other thing you’ve omitted is the greater number of Jews that were expelled from Arab states. you haven’t asked for them to be able to return either, but it’s probably not a good idea as they would be killed, as is typical for anybody who doesn’t follow or has left Islam in Arabic countries. Witness the current genocide against the druze people in Syria. saying my points are a rehash of standard propaganda is silly: anyone can verify that we know UNRWA staff are members of hamas, that UNRWA facilities are routinely used by Hamas, that UNRWA schools teach children to desire to be martyrs and that UNRWA has a different definition of refugee than UNHCR. The very obvious solution is UNRWA should be disbanded.