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What I think the guy is getting at is a holistic view here. That the manure from animals raised in healthy conditions-- meaning low density, no antibiotics, nat

What I think the guy is getting at is a holistic view here. That the manure from animals raised in healthy conditions-- meaning low density, no antibiotics, natural diet--is a safe and ecologically sound fertilizer. It is, after-all, how farming developed over thousands of years. Sorry if that sounds too Michael Pollan for you but I think it passes as both common sense and historically accurate.

kalleboo 14y ago
> It is, after-all, how farming developed over thousands of years You may be right about it being safe, but I'd be careful about using this logic. Over "thousands of years", we had a life expectancy at birth of 30 years, indicating that among other things the food supply may not have been very safe.
- Turing_Machine 14y ago
  Right. Not to mention the ever-present fear of famine. Going back to low-tech, low-energy, localized production is a recipe for the return of large-scale famine.
Turing_Machine 14y ago
Which is also nonsense. Animals raised without antibiotics and vaccinations carry a horde of diseases.
- Turing_Machine 14y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis#Partial_list_of_zoonoses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis#Partial_list_of_zoonos... Click through a few of these and note how many of them are spread by animals in living in a low density, no antibiotics, natural diet environment.
- encoderer 14y ago
  Such as? I'm far from an expert but this has been an interest of mine for years -- deeper than just watching Food, Inc. You're right that livestock in feedlots carry awful diseases. But in proper conditions--you could even say humane conditions--they don't inherently carry any more diseases than you or I. I mean, what are you arguing for exactly? That we shouldn't use natural sources of NPK? Try your hand at explaining that.
  - Turing_Machine 14y ago
    "they don't inherently carry any more diseases than you or I." I don't eat crops fertilized with human feces, either. "That we shouldn't use natural sources of NPK? Try your hand at explaining that." I don't like famines that kill millions of people.
    - Turing_Machine 14y ago
      I also don't think I'd care to live in a world where 90+% of us were illiterate peasants bound to the soil (serfs if we were lucky, slaves if not), spending our entire lives on hand-cultivation of crops. That was the norm essentially everywhere on the planet right up until the development of modern, mechanized agriculture.
    - encoderer 14y ago
      Do you think there's no natural manure fertilizer on your crops? You've got an interesting argument here. You're against organic food because it's more likely to spread bacteria and parasites? But you've not really offered any facts, just blanket statements. I'm going to bow-out of this now -- apologize if I'm reading this wrong but this all seems too trollish for my tastes.
      - Turing_Machine 14y ago
        I've provided links for everything. You've provided none. A couple more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines Note how few of these occurred in countries with industrialized agriculture (the exceptions being cause by war devastation or the like). https://www.google.com/search?q=percentage+of+population+in+farming+middle+ages https://www.google.com/search?q=percentage+of+population+in+... Numerous sources demonstrating that pre-industrial farming resulted in 90-odd percent of the population being peasants.
- sprocket 14y ago
  This is a ridiculous assertion. First of all, "organic farming" doesn't preclude you from treating sick animals with antibiotics, if necessary, nor does it prevent you from vaccinating. (Sick animals are required to be held back for a specified period before entering the food chain.) What it does attempt to prevent is animals being fed prophylactic antibiotics, which is a major cause of antibiotic resistant bacterial strains. Second, organically raised animals are not festering with disease. My wife and I have hundreds of healthy, organically raised animals on our farm. For example, in the last summer we have grown, processed and sold over 500 chickens which we have lost ZERO to illness. Animals raised in humane, low stress (and the low stress is key) situations GET SICK VERY INFREQUENTLY. It's in situations where they are concentrated in industrial settings (ie. chicken broiler barns or cattle feed lots) that the stress kicks in, suppresses immune system function and you end up with sick animals that get fed antibiotics to cover up the symptoms.
  - Turing_Machine 14y ago
    Your anecdote does not trump data. Sorry.
    - sprocket 14y ago
      I welcome any data that you care to provide.

kalleboo 14y ago

> It is, after-all, how farming developed over thousands of years You may be right about it being safe, but I'd be careful about using this logic. Over "thousands of years", we had a life expectancy at birth of 30 years, indicating that among other things the food supply may not have been very safe.

Turing_Machine 14y ago
Right. Not to mention the ever-present fear of famine. Going back to low-tech, low-energy, localized production is a recipe for the return of large-scale famine.

Turing_Machine 14y ago

Which is also nonsense. Animals raised without antibiotics and vaccinations carry a horde of diseases.

Turing_Machine 14y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis#Partial_list_of_zoonoses http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoonosis#Partial_list_of_zoonos... Click through a few of these and note how many of them are spread by animals in living in a low density, no antibiotics, natural diet environment.
encoderer 14y ago
Such as? I'm far from an expert but this has been an interest of mine for years -- deeper than just watching Food, Inc. You're right that livestock in feedlots carry awful diseases. But in proper conditions--you could even say humane conditions--they don't inherently carry any more diseases than you or I. I mean, what are you arguing for exactly? That we shouldn't use natural sources of NPK? Try your hand at explaining that.
- Turing_Machine 14y ago
  "they don't inherently carry any more diseases than you or I." I don't eat crops fertilized with human feces, either. "That we shouldn't use natural sources of NPK? Try your hand at explaining that." I don't like famines that kill millions of people.
  - Turing_Machine 14y ago
    I also don't think I'd care to live in a world where 90+% of us were illiterate peasants bound to the soil (serfs if we were lucky, slaves if not), spending our entire lives on hand-cultivation of crops. That was the norm essentially everywhere on the planet right up until the development of modern, mechanized agriculture.
  - encoderer 14y ago
    Do you think there's no natural manure fertilizer on your crops? You've got an interesting argument here. You're against organic food because it's more likely to spread bacteria and parasites? But you've not really offered any facts, just blanket statements. I'm going to bow-out of this now -- apologize if I'm reading this wrong but this all seems too trollish for my tastes.
    - Turing_Machine 14y ago
      I've provided links for everything. You've provided none. A couple more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines Note how few of these occurred in countries with industrialized agriculture (the exceptions being cause by war devastation or the like). https://www.google.com/search?q=percentage+of+population+in+farming+middle+ages https://www.google.com/search?q=percentage+of+population+in+... Numerous sources demonstrating that pre-industrial farming resulted in 90-odd percent of the population being peasants.
sprocket 14y ago
This is a ridiculous assertion. First of all, "organic farming" doesn't preclude you from treating sick animals with antibiotics, if necessary, nor does it prevent you from vaccinating. (Sick animals are required to be held back for a specified period before entering the food chain.) What it does attempt to prevent is animals being fed prophylactic antibiotics, which is a major cause of antibiotic resistant bacterial strains. Second, organically raised animals are not festering with disease. My wife and I have hundreds of healthy, organically raised animals on our farm. For example, in the last summer we have grown, processed and sold over 500 chickens which we have lost ZERO to illness. Animals raised in humane, low stress (and the low stress is key) situations GET SICK VERY INFREQUENTLY. It's in situations where they are concentrated in industrial settings (ie. chicken broiler barns or cattle feed lots) that the stress kicks in, suppresses immune system function and you end up with sick animals that get fed antibiotics to cover up the symptoms.
- Turing_Machine 14y ago
  Your anecdote does not trump data. Sorry.
  - sprocket 14y ago
    I welcome any data that you care to provide.