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> But recently, cracks have been starting to show. Norwegians are taking much more sick leave than a decade ago, driving up costs for health services. Student t

by Vinnl 1y ago

> But recently, cracks have been starting to show. Norwegians are taking much more sick leave than a decade ago, driving up costs for health services. Student test scores have worsened more than in other Scandinavian countries, and critics of the government say there are too many boondoggle tunnels and bridges to nowhere. These are the issues they're worried about? None of the numbers I saw while scanning look particularly worrying, and I doubt there's ever been a country on the face of this planet for which you wouldn't have been able to produce a similar list of issues of this magnitude - including past Norway. They're worth paying attention to, but not sounding the alarm bells over.

jjmarr 1y ago
There's plenty of least-developed countries where most of the population isn't formally employed, doesn't engage with standardized tests, and has never built necessary bridges/tunnels.
danans 1y ago
> They're worth paying attention to, but not sounding the alarm bells over. That's because there is a default bad assumption that because they are so wealthy that no problems should exist, similar to how very rich people are seen. Looking at other wealthy petro-states (and people) around the world, that's clearly not true. But relatively speaking I don't think there's a country that wouldn't trade most of their problems for Norway's, with the possible exception of their aging population.
- 9rx 1y ago
  What's the problem? Only poor people care about test scores as they imagine high test scores is how one can pull themselves out of being poor. When you are rich you can also do pointless things just for the fun of it like build bridges to nowhere. None of these are problems unless you try and look at it through a poor man's lens. Poorer health might be concerning, but is likely the result of the population growing older. More children would help make the numbers look better, I suppose, but, statistically, only poor people like having children.
  - nordsieck 1y ago
    > What's the problem? Only poor people care about test scores as they imagine high test scores is how one can pull themselves out of being poor. When you are rich you can also do pointless things just for the fun of it like build bridges to nowhere. None of these are problems unless you try and look at it through a poor man's lens. That may be a reasonable take at the level of an individual. But it's nonsense at the level of a country. Wealth is the ability to get other people to do things. But if everyone is becoming less capable, then that's not a problem that wealth can fix. Outsourcing may be a temporary solution to his problem, but I don't see it working well long term.
    - 9rx 1y ago
      > But if everyone is becoming less capable, then that's not a problem that wealth can fix. What suggests that people are becoming less capable? More importantly, what suggests that people are becoming less capable in an irreversible way? If people are less capable, but it is reversible, then wealth can fix it. As you said, you can use wealth to get other people to become more capable.
      - nordsieck 1y ago
        > What suggests that people are becoming less capable? From the root level comment in this thread: > Student test scores have worsened more than in other Scandinavian countries, and critics of the government say there are too many boondoggle tunnels and bridges to nowhere. - > More importantly, what suggests that people are becoming less capable in an irreversible way? If people are less capable, but it is reversible, then wealth can fix it. I don't think anyone is suggesting that this trend is irreversible. But big trends like this can be difficult to turn around - if it were easy, the trend wouldn't have happened in the first place (or, at least, it wouldn't have been detectable). > If people are less capable, but it is reversible, then wealth can fix it. As you said, you can use wealth to get other people to become more capable. You can't just say "wealth will do x". That's really a semantic shortcut for saying "people will do x". But presumably people are already trying to improve the countries test scores. And people are already trying (at least to a certain extent) to spend government funds wisely. I'm not really sure how wealth will change what's currently occurring.
- oceanplexian 1y ago
  The USA surpassed Norway's median income some time in the 2020's. And it's VASTLY cheaper to live in the United States. The Nordic petro states were never really that impressive to me personally. I'm sure someone will come out of the woodwork to talk up their healthcare and social services, but again, if you were being fair we would compare them to a State like Massachusetts instead of Mississippi or Alabama and you would find our healthcare systems here are equally if not more accessible.
  - EA-3167 1y ago
    Speaking for myself, I also really enjoy the diversity we have in the US, and our ability to absorb immigration and integrate into a whole. Meanwhile the Scandi/Nordic states seem to struggle like the rest of Western Europe when it comes to accepting new people without ghettoizing them for an indefinite number of generations.
    - jon-wood 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - EA-3167 1y ago
        The US has more history to it than just the last 6 months, and some of us recall that while Trump puts on a big show with lots of heat and noise, there's rarely much light. If you look at actual deportations, he lags behind previous administrations. So no, putting the frenzy over this administration aside, and recognizing that the US has more history and more of a future than the rule of one man, what I said holds.
        em-bee 1y ago
        having lived in the US and in europe i can confirm that. the issues with integration in the US are very different from those in europe. the US suffers from systemic historic racism that they are struggling to get rid of, but they have always been a mix of cultures where some aspects of foreign cultures are assimilated and accepted and other aspects disappear as the immigrants adapt. europe suffers from xenophobia and general difficulty to integrate foreign cultures. being traditionally a single culture there is very little assimilation of foreign cultures (mostly some food items) and immigrants are expected to adapt fully to the local culture, without any allowance to keep aspects of their own culture with few exceptions. in my opinion this leads to immigrants in europe holding on to their own culture more than they would in the US making integration even more difficult.
- jsbisviewtiful 1y ago
  >there is a default bad assumption that because they are so wealthy that no problems should exist I live in a wealthier US state and the folks in my city's subreddit whine - and they whine a lot.
csomar 1y ago
Not worrying about cracks early is a sure way to end up bankrupt.
- Vinnl 1y ago
  I agree, which is why I also said: > They're worth paying attention to
onlyrealcuzzo 1y ago
If every person in Norway is worth $100M - who's going to wait the tables and bring them coffee and service their boats and clean their houses while they sail around and be leisurely all day? Who's going to tend to the ski lifts and the golf courses? Who's going to take care of their polo horses? Who's going to clean the streets and work at the police stations? Who's going to keep the grid running? Who's going to work the ports to import everything? Who's going to drive the delivery trucks and put everything in it's place upon arrival? It's blatantly obvious that you can't have a society where everyone is "rich", unless you have a second class of citizens to wait on them. Robots aren't advanced enough yet. While in some ways Norway is laughably far from this scenario, in other ways, their sovereign wealth fund is less about a decade away from everyone being a millionaire - which, theoretically, should allow everyone to not work and have a decent life - but obviously will not (unless they import second class citizens, that aren't ever allowed access to the wealth fund, and have to do all the work).
- xeromal 1y ago
  Yeah, if everyone has a 100 million dollars, no one has a 100 million.
- skrebbel 1y ago
  You have a very American idea of “rich”. For you, it’s being worth 100M. But for me it’s being able to lead a life without financial worries doing a job relatively few hours a week, regardless of whether I code or wait tables. By this second definition, a country can definitely be rich across the board without having a “poor” second class. Just make sure people earn a decent living wage, and then some. There will be low crime (no need for gated communities!), high trust (no need for a lawyer on retainer!), and good education and health care (no need for private schools or hospitals!) You have a very zero-sum view of wealth, the idea that to be wealthy means it’s gotta be to the detriment of others. I’m not saying Norway’s got it all figured out, but they’re definitely gunning for something closer to what I describe than what you do.
  - binary132 1y ago
    I think what GP is saying is less like “most people will be comfortable” and more like “most people won’t need to work”, and that that can’t work.
trueismywork 1y ago
Seats in medical schools go empty in Oslo because the course are difficult. I have lived in Oslo. Problem is real

by Vinnl 1y ago

jjmarr 1y ago

There's plenty of least-developed countries where most of the population isn't formally employed, doesn't engage with standardized tests, and has never built necessary bridges/tunnels.

danans 1y ago

> They're worth paying attention to, but not sounding the alarm bells over. That's because there is a default bad assumption that because they are so wealthy that no problems should exist, similar to how very rich people are seen. Looking at other wealthy petro-states (and people) around the world, that's clearly not true. But relatively speaking I don't think there's a country that wouldn't trade most of their problems for Norway's, with the possible exception of their aging population.

9rx 1y ago
What's the problem? Only poor people care about test scores as they imagine high test scores is how one can pull themselves out of being poor. When you are rich you can also do pointless things just for the fun of it like build bridges to nowhere. None of these are problems unless you try and look at it through a poor man's lens. Poorer health might be concerning, but is likely the result of the population growing older. More children would help make the numbers look better, I suppose, but, statistically, only poor people like having children.
- nordsieck 1y ago
  > What's the problem? Only poor people care about test scores as they imagine high test scores is how one can pull themselves out of being poor. When you are rich you can also do pointless things just for the fun of it like build bridges to nowhere. None of these are problems unless you try and look at it through a poor man's lens. That may be a reasonable take at the level of an individual. But it's nonsense at the level of a country. Wealth is the ability to get other people to do things. But if everyone is becoming less capable, then that's not a problem that wealth can fix. Outsourcing may be a temporary solution to his problem, but I don't see it working well long term.
  - 9rx 1y ago
    > But if everyone is becoming less capable, then that's not a problem that wealth can fix. What suggests that people are becoming less capable? More importantly, what suggests that people are becoming less capable in an irreversible way? If people are less capable, but it is reversible, then wealth can fix it. As you said, you can use wealth to get other people to become more capable.
    - nordsieck 1y ago
      > What suggests that people are becoming less capable? From the root level comment in this thread: > Student test scores have worsened more than in other Scandinavian countries, and critics of the government say there are too many boondoggle tunnels and bridges to nowhere. - > More importantly, what suggests that people are becoming less capable in an irreversible way? If people are less capable, but it is reversible, then wealth can fix it. I don't think anyone is suggesting that this trend is irreversible. But big trends like this can be difficult to turn around - if it were easy, the trend wouldn't have happened in the first place (or, at least, it wouldn't have been detectable). > If people are less capable, but it is reversible, then wealth can fix it. As you said, you can use wealth to get other people to become more capable. You can't just say "wealth will do x". That's really a semantic shortcut for saying "people will do x". But presumably people are already trying to improve the countries test scores. And people are already trying (at least to a certain extent) to spend government funds wisely. I'm not really sure how wealth will change what's currently occurring.
oceanplexian 1y ago
The USA surpassed Norway's median income some time in the 2020's. And it's VASTLY cheaper to live in the United States. The Nordic petro states were never really that impressive to me personally. I'm sure someone will come out of the woodwork to talk up their healthcare and social services, but again, if you were being fair we would compare them to a State like Massachusetts instead of Mississippi or Alabama and you would find our healthcare systems here are equally if not more accessible.
- EA-3167 1y ago
  Speaking for myself, I also really enjoy the diversity we have in the US, and our ability to absorb immigration and integrate into a whole. Meanwhile the Scandi/Nordic states seem to struggle like the rest of Western Europe when it comes to accepting new people without ghettoizing them for an indefinite number of generations.
  - jon-wood 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - EA-3167 1y ago
      The US has more history to it than just the last 6 months, and some of us recall that while Trump puts on a big show with lots of heat and noise, there's rarely much light. If you look at actual deportations, he lags behind previous administrations. So no, putting the frenzy over this administration aside, and recognizing that the US has more history and more of a future than the rule of one man, what I said holds.
      - em-bee 1y ago
        having lived in the US and in europe i can confirm that. the issues with integration in the US are very different from those in europe. the US suffers from systemic historic racism that they are struggling to get rid of, but they have always been a mix of cultures where some aspects of foreign cultures are assimilated and accepted and other aspects disappear as the immigrants adapt. europe suffers from xenophobia and general difficulty to integrate foreign cultures. being traditionally a single culture there is very little assimilation of foreign cultures (mostly some food items) and immigrants are expected to adapt fully to the local culture, without any allowance to keep aspects of their own culture with few exceptions. in my opinion this leads to immigrants in europe holding on to their own culture more than they would in the US making integration even more difficult.
jsbisviewtiful 1y ago
>there is a default bad assumption that because they are so wealthy that no problems should exist I live in a wealthier US state and the folks in my city's subreddit whine - and they whine a lot.

csomar 1y ago

Not worrying about cracks early is a sure way to end up bankrupt.

Vinnl 1y ago
I agree, which is why I also said: > They're worth paying attention to

onlyrealcuzzo 1y ago

If every person in Norway is worth $100M - who's going to wait the tables and bring them coffee and service their boats and clean their houses while they sail around and be leisurely all day? Who's going to tend to the ski lifts and the golf courses? Who's going to take care of their polo horses? Who's going to clean the streets and work at the police stations? Who's going to keep the grid running? Who's going to work the ports to import everything? Who's going to drive the delivery trucks and put everything in it's place upon arrival? It's blatantly obvious that you can't have a society where everyone is "rich", unless you have a second class of citizens to wait on them. Robots aren't advanced enough yet. While in some ways Norway is laughably far from this scenario, in other ways, their sovereign wealth fund is less about a decade away from everyone being a millionaire - which, theoretically, should allow everyone to not work and have a decent life - but obviously will not (unless they import second class citizens, that aren't ever allowed access to the wealth fund, and have to do all the work).

xeromal 1y ago
Yeah, if everyone has a 100 million dollars, no one has a 100 million.
skrebbel 1y ago
You have a very American idea of “rich”. For you, it’s being worth 100M. But for me it’s being able to lead a life without financial worries doing a job relatively few hours a week, regardless of whether I code or wait tables. By this second definition, a country can definitely be rich across the board without having a “poor” second class. Just make sure people earn a decent living wage, and then some. There will be low crime (no need for gated communities!), high trust (no need for a lawyer on retainer!), and good education and health care (no need for private schools or hospitals!) You have a very zero-sum view of wealth, the idea that to be wealthy means it’s gotta be to the detriment of others. I’m not saying Norway’s got it all figured out, but they’re definitely gunning for something closer to what I describe than what you do.
- binary132 1y ago
  I think what GP is saying is less like “most people will be comfortable” and more like “most people won’t need to work”, and that that can’t work.

trueismywork 1y ago

Seats in medical schools go empty in Oslo because the course are difficult. I have lived in Oslo. Problem is real