4 ms·

That's an extremely opinionated point and doesn't add to the discussion and comes off being on a witch hunt. MS couldn't stop Samsung, HTC, Lenovo etc. from shi

That's an extremely opinionated point and doesn't add to the discussion and comes off being on a witch hunt. MS couldn't stop Samsung, HTC, Lenovo etc. from shipping Android devices, nor all of them plus Acer, Dell, and hundred other OEMs etc. from shipping Android tablets. What about HP and WebOS? Dell still ships Ubuntu laptops. And almost all the big OEMs have a big Linux division beside their Windows server division on their server pages. http://content.dell.com/us/en/enterprise/linux-servers http://content.dell.com/us/en/enterprise/linux-servers http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/servers/byos/linuxservers.html http://h18000.www1.hp.com/products/servers/byos/linuxservers... Where are the lawsuits against System76? If there really was demand, you think a company wouldn't start up and offer Linux? In fact there have been OEMs shipping Linux, but stopped or hid their offerings after the high rate of returns from people buying and returning them. And the tech savvy people who are the real customers can buy ANY PC out there and throw Linux on it(or just get a Macbook Air). There's not much money in it for the OEMs except high support costs, return rates and a whole toolchain to get Linux images(hard on thin margins). If there is real mass consumer demand, a company can ship Linux profitably, MS won't care about them till they start making hundreds of millions a quarter, at which point successfully fighting a lawsuit based on antitrust case precedent on PCs or paying a low amount per PC won't really hurt the manufacturer. So, stop painting MS as the bogeyman in this discussion, Windows' and Office dominance(due to Open/LibreOffice not being up to par due to various reasons including Office compatibility) is a well known reason.

rbanffy 14y ago
This strategy is very risky. Microsoft can litigate any OEM to the ground and the fees they extract from Android makers would eat away any profit margin in the x86 PC space. The fact they convinced Android OEMs to pay can be used to legitimize those patents on the PC space and many of their "licensees" already are PC makers (and thus will have a harder time litigating those patents).
- recoiledsnake 14y ago
  Any shakedown by MS in the PC space extremely unlikely to fly given the terms of settlement in the antitrust case in both the US and EU and restrictions still in place in the EU on the browser choice screen, requiring network and document specs etc. Hell, B&N even tried the antitrust angle in the Android tablet patents cae.
  - rbanffy 14y ago
    > Any shakedown by MS in the PC space extremely unlikely to fly Not if they have a good excuse (patents Android OEMs consider valid enough to license). > Hell, B&N even tried the antitrust angle in the Android tablet patents cae. Unfortunately, Microsoft and B&N became "partners" before the list of secret patents became public.
    - recoiledsnake 14y ago
      I find this discussion increasingly irrelevant. It's hard to make the case that companies like Samsung or Dell are not pushing Linux more just because MS may increase their Android requirements. Even a hint of any such thing will result in a multibillion dollar fine paid to the OEMs and injunction against MS in the courts. What about the fact that there is little interest in the general public for Linux(due to many reasons including Wintel and Office monopolies) and the OEMs are hampered more by that and the reasons in my OP above rather than your weak reasoning? Have you seen how few Chromebooks have been sold? Do you really think MS hampered them with their patent licensing deals(there have been a couple) or do you think there are much bigger reasons that ChromeOS/Linux hasn't taken off ? What about new companies like System76? Why don't you start a new company that sells Linux PCs? Do you know how Dell or Compaq started? It was just one or two people in a garage assembling PCs and throwing DOS on them. The difference was that people bought a lot of them. http://www.zdnet.com/chromebook-looks-like-another-googleflop-4010024772/ http://www.zdnet.com/chromebook-looks-like-another-googleflo... This whole blame MS for everything regardless of real issues attitude is getting old.
      - rbanffy 14y ago
        You argue there is no demand and I say that, even if there was a demand, the PC margins woulds not support the Microsoft taxes associated with Linux. You say Microsoft would not extort PC makers like they do with Android makers but there is no evidence for that. If you have any documents suggesting otherwise, it would be nice if you could produce them. Besides, when all PC makers depend so much on Microsoft, there are many other creative ways to punish OEMs who want to be more independent without raising too many eyebrows.
batgaijin 14y ago
1). Yes, companies ship Android devices, but if you read any of the articles you would have seen that those companies pay $8-15 for a Windows Mobile license for each phone. 2). You are right about Microsoft not trying to litigate for Linux servers, but I'd take a guess that is because most companies already have a heterogeneous environment, and if push came to shove I would assume that most companies would consider a full switch to Linux if Microsoft forced their hand. 3). HP and Facebook are the two main companies defending Linux atm, you are right about that: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/20/facebook_hp_and_openstack_join_open_invention_network/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/20/facebook_hp_and_open... 4). Dell does not currently distribute any consumer laptop with Linux as an option, at least not when I tried the top 10 popular laptops on their site. 5). They don't profit from putting System76 out of business, and in fact would probably cause much more financial harm in terms of what it would do their image as picking on the little guy. 6). You are absolutely right about the low consumer demand. However, don't you think it's weird that NOBODY is pushing it? Not even as an experiment? No smartbook running Android? Why is the Asus Transformer the closest attack we see?
- recoiledsnake 14y ago
  > Dell does not currently distribute any consumer laptop with Linux as an option, >However, don't you think it's weird that NOBODY is pushing it? Not even as an experiment? No smartbook running Android? Wrong. It's funny you're commenting on this so vehemently with so much anger against MS in this and previous threads and you haven't even heard of Dell's Sputnik? http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/259229/dells_ubuntu_laptop_program_enters_beta_blows_away_expectations.html http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/259229/dells_u... They do sell in places where there's more demand, and the Windows tax is high in relative cost of living terms. http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/06/ubuntu-dell-laptops-go-on-sale-in-india http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/06/ubuntu-dell-laptops-go-on... They did try a while ago in the US and they didn't sell well and now they're making a dev ultrabook. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/07/dell-launching-sputnik-the-ubuntu-developer-laptop-this-year/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/07/dell-l... http://www.zdnet.com/dell-re-enters-high-end-linux-laptop-market-with-red-hat-enterprise-linux-7000001583/ http://www.zdnet.com/dell-re-enters-high-end-linux-laptop-ma... Microsoft is plenty evil, but there's no need to make up things. Edit: How many would buy Dell's laptop? Most devs would prefer their own choice, perhaps a Macbook Air or throw Linux on a Thinkpad. How does Dell get a leg up on Lenovo(with Windows) here without making 20 laptops with Linux?

rbanffy 14y ago

This strategy is very risky. Microsoft can litigate any OEM to the ground and the fees they extract from Android makers would eat away any profit margin in the x86 PC space. The fact they convinced Android OEMs to pay can be used to legitimize those patents on the PC space and many of their "licensees" already are PC makers (and thus will have a harder time litigating those patents).

recoiledsnake 14y ago
Any shakedown by MS in the PC space extremely unlikely to fly given the terms of settlement in the antitrust case in both the US and EU and restrictions still in place in the EU on the browser choice screen, requiring network and document specs etc. Hell, B&N even tried the antitrust angle in the Android tablet patents cae.
- rbanffy 14y ago
  > Any shakedown by MS in the PC space extremely unlikely to fly Not if they have a good excuse (patents Android OEMs consider valid enough to license). > Hell, B&N even tried the antitrust angle in the Android tablet patents cae. Unfortunately, Microsoft and B&N became "partners" before the list of secret patents became public.
  - recoiledsnake 14y ago
    I find this discussion increasingly irrelevant. It's hard to make the case that companies like Samsung or Dell are not pushing Linux more just because MS may increase their Android requirements. Even a hint of any such thing will result in a multibillion dollar fine paid to the OEMs and injunction against MS in the courts. What about the fact that there is little interest in the general public for Linux(due to many reasons including Wintel and Office monopolies) and the OEMs are hampered more by that and the reasons in my OP above rather than your weak reasoning? Have you seen how few Chromebooks have been sold? Do you really think MS hampered them with their patent licensing deals(there have been a couple) or do you think there are much bigger reasons that ChromeOS/Linux hasn't taken off ? What about new companies like System76? Why don't you start a new company that sells Linux PCs? Do you know how Dell or Compaq started? It was just one or two people in a garage assembling PCs and throwing DOS on them. The difference was that people bought a lot of them. http://www.zdnet.com/chromebook-looks-like-another-googleflop-4010024772/ http://www.zdnet.com/chromebook-looks-like-another-googleflo... This whole blame MS for everything regardless of real issues attitude is getting old.
    - rbanffy 14y ago
      You argue there is no demand and I say that, even if there was a demand, the PC margins woulds not support the Microsoft taxes associated with Linux. You say Microsoft would not extort PC makers like they do with Android makers but there is no evidence for that. If you have any documents suggesting otherwise, it would be nice if you could produce them. Besides, when all PC makers depend so much on Microsoft, there are many other creative ways to punish OEMs who want to be more independent without raising too many eyebrows.

batgaijin 14y ago

1). Yes, companies ship Android devices, but if you read any of the articles you would have seen that those companies pay $8-15 for a Windows Mobile license for each phone. 2). You are right about Microsoft not trying to litigate for Linux servers, but I'd take a guess that is because most companies already have a heterogeneous environment, and if push came to shove I would assume that most companies would consider a full switch to Linux if Microsoft forced their hand. 3). HP and Facebook are the two main companies defending Linux atm, you are right about that: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/20/facebook_hp_and_openstack_join_open_invention_network/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/04/20/facebook_hp_and_open... 4). Dell does not currently distribute any consumer laptop with Linux as an option, at least not when I tried the top 10 popular laptops on their site. 5). They don't profit from putting System76 out of business, and in fact would probably cause much more financial harm in terms of what it would do their image as picking on the little guy. 6). You are absolutely right about the low consumer demand. However, don't you think it's weird that NOBODY is pushing it? Not even as an experiment? No smartbook running Android? Why is the Asus Transformer the closest attack we see?

recoiledsnake 14y ago
> Dell does not currently distribute any consumer laptop with Linux as an option, >However, don't you think it's weird that NOBODY is pushing it? Not even as an experiment? No smartbook running Android? Wrong. It's funny you're commenting on this so vehemently with so much anger against MS in this and previous threads and you haven't even heard of Dell's Sputnik? http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/259229/dells_ubuntu_laptop_program_enters_beta_blows_away_expectations.html http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/259229/dells_u... They do sell in places where there's more demand, and the Windows tax is high in relative cost of living terms. http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/06/ubuntu-dell-laptops-go-on-sale-in-india http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/06/ubuntu-dell-laptops-go-on... They did try a while ago in the US and they didn't sell well and now they're making a dev ultrabook. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/07/dell-launching-sputnik-the-ubuntu-developer-laptop-this-year/ http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/07/dell-l... http://www.zdnet.com/dell-re-enters-high-end-linux-laptop-market-with-red-hat-enterprise-linux-7000001583/ http://www.zdnet.com/dell-re-enters-high-end-linux-laptop-ma... Microsoft is plenty evil, but there's no need to make up things. Edit: How many would buy Dell's laptop? Most devs would prefer their own choice, perhaps a Macbook Air or throw Linux on a Thinkpad. How does Dell get a leg up on Lenovo(with Windows) here without making 20 laptops with Linux?