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Try buying a fan on Temu which was actually FCC, CE, and UL tested and certified. Sadly, all of these certifications cost money. That means companies who actua

Try buying a fan on Temu which was actually FCC, CE, and UL tested and certified. Sadly, all of these certifications cost money. That means companies who actually did the certification are forced to charge more for the same quality level. Also, Temu is heavily reliant on infrastructure which was paid for by the taxes paid by local companies. The trick how Temu can avoid paying is by lying on the customs forms and declaring business transactions as valueless gifts. I’m not sure I would call fraud prevention as “regulatory capture”.

crinkly 1y ago
A fun one is some of the phone chargers on there. Someone at work bought one and found out quickly that there was 240V on the USB-C shell. They were lucky it didn't kill them. That was marked as CE / UL etc because the stickers are cheap. Actually tested stuff costs money. Not a lot more but enough to push them down the ranks.
- pjc50 1y ago
  I've also had this experience; ordered a box of 10 chargers for $20 for the office, and of course they're built down to that price way below any standard of electrical safety. The "shell" was joined in a way that pulling on it to pull out the plug could detach the back leaving exposed live wiring.
shivasaxena 1y ago
> Also, Temu is heavily reliant on infrastructure which was paid for by the taxes paid by local companies. The trick how Temu can avoid paying is by lying on the customs forms and declaring business transactions as valueless gifts. I’m not sure I would call fraud prevention as “regulatory capture”. I'm not aware them labelling business transactions as gifts. As far as I know there has always been 150 euros duty-free threshold and I have been using it to order traditional clothes from India for more than 15 years now. The packages I get from Temu are clearly marked as commercial. Also, in my mind it's arguable if local retailers paid for postal infrastructure. However what in arguable in my mind is that esselunga/carrefour sell me a wine opener for 12 EUR that I can buy for 2 EUR on temu. So I think you should also blame our domestic retailers a fraction of what you blame chinese retailers for bleeding us dry of our hard earned money.
- fxtentacle 1y ago
  In your example, do you think the 10€ price difference would be enough for hiring a customs agent, paying import duty, and VAT? Because otherwise you’ve just said that Temu only works precisely because they don’t pay import customs like any local company would.
  - shivasaxena 1y ago
    Good point, but custom duty on a 2€ wine opener is no where close to 10€. As far as I know on such goods it ranges for 0-30%. Most of it is just outrageous markup since there's no competition in europe(save again for 1€ mom and pop chinese shops). Not to mention european retailers would get huge bulk discounts on the sticker price of 2€.
    - microtonal 1y ago
      As people have repeatedly pointed out to you, it's not just about VAT and import taxes (do not forget that most European countries have around 20% VAT, which is often also not paid). In contrast to Temu, European companies have to deal with: - Safety testing to ensure it complies with European laws. - Liability. If a product causes harm to someone, they can sue you. - Warranty returns, if a product breaks, you have to repair it or replace it. - Other returns, at least in the EU you can return a product bought online within two weeks, no questions asked. This should not be underestimated, e.g. for European online clothing stores, this is a significant chunk of their orders. People order three pairs of shoes, try them on and return the pairs that they don't want to keep. Best case, the product needs to be inspected by a (paid) human, worst case they have to trash it. Temu does exactly none of that. The reason we have these laws are: companies try to maximize their profits. Getting your house burnt down, your kid lead-poisoned, or getting a broken product without any course for replacement just sucks. So we make companies responsible for what they put on the market. Temu makes money by skipping all of that and externalizing the cost.
      - shivasaxena 1y ago
        > The reason we have these laws are: companies try to maximize their profits. Getting your house burnt down, your kid lead-poisoned, or getting a broken product without any course for replacement just sucks. So we make companies responsible for what they put on the market. Temu makes money by skipping all of that and externalizing the cost. I'm not against forcing Temu to follow EU regulations. I'm against this trumpian push for protectionism and changing of custom rules or straight-out ban under the guise of health and safety. > Temu does exactly none of that. I would say it's arguable since Temu also has returns and often european retailers are selling same exact goods from same factory. However assuming you are correct, in you mind does it justify a 10 eur markup on a 2 eur wine-opener by esselunga? It would serve our interests if we redirect a fraction of this outrage on temu/shein on our domestic inefficient retailers since it would motivate them to improve their own logistics and improve supply chain efficiency.

crinkly 1y ago

A fun one is some of the phone chargers on there. Someone at work bought one and found out quickly that there was 240V on the USB-C shell. They were lucky it didn't kill them. That was marked as CE / UL etc because the stickers are cheap. Actually tested stuff costs money. Not a lot more but enough to push them down the ranks.

pjc50 1y ago
I've also had this experience; ordered a box of 10 chargers for $20 for the office, and of course they're built down to that price way below any standard of electrical safety. The "shell" was joined in a way that pulling on it to pull out the plug could detach the back leaving exposed live wiring.

shivasaxena 1y ago

> Also, Temu is heavily reliant on infrastructure which was paid for by the taxes paid by local companies. The trick how Temu can avoid paying is by lying on the customs forms and declaring business transactions as valueless gifts. I’m not sure I would call fraud prevention as “regulatory capture”. I'm not aware them labelling business transactions as gifts. As far as I know there has always been 150 euros duty-free threshold and I have been using it to order traditional clothes from India for more than 15 years now. The packages I get from Temu are clearly marked as commercial. Also, in my mind it's arguable if local retailers paid for postal infrastructure. However what in arguable in my mind is that esselunga/carrefour sell me a wine opener for 12 EUR that I can buy for 2 EUR on temu. So I think you should also blame our domestic retailers a fraction of what you blame chinese retailers for bleeding us dry of our hard earned money.

fxtentacle 1y ago
In your example, do you think the 10€ price difference would be enough for hiring a customs agent, paying import duty, and VAT? Because otherwise you’ve just said that Temu only works precisely because they don’t pay import customs like any local company would.
- shivasaxena 1y ago
  Good point, but custom duty on a 2€ wine opener is no where close to 10€. As far as I know on such goods it ranges for 0-30%. Most of it is just outrageous markup since there's no competition in europe(save again for 1€ mom and pop chinese shops). Not to mention european retailers would get huge bulk discounts on the sticker price of 2€.
  - microtonal 1y ago
    As people have repeatedly pointed out to you, it's not just about VAT and import taxes (do not forget that most European countries have around 20% VAT, which is often also not paid). In contrast to Temu, European companies have to deal with: - Safety testing to ensure it complies with European laws. - Liability. If a product causes harm to someone, they can sue you. - Warranty returns, if a product breaks, you have to repair it or replace it. - Other returns, at least in the EU you can return a product bought online within two weeks, no questions asked. This should not be underestimated, e.g. for European online clothing stores, this is a significant chunk of their orders. People order three pairs of shoes, try them on and return the pairs that they don't want to keep. Best case, the product needs to be inspected by a (paid) human, worst case they have to trash it. Temu does exactly none of that. The reason we have these laws are: companies try to maximize their profits. Getting your house burnt down, your kid lead-poisoned, or getting a broken product without any course for replacement just sucks. So we make companies responsible for what they put on the market. Temu makes money by skipping all of that and externalizing the cost.
    - shivasaxena 1y ago
      > The reason we have these laws are: companies try to maximize their profits. Getting your house burnt down, your kid lead-poisoned, or getting a broken product without any course for replacement just sucks. So we make companies responsible for what they put on the market. Temu makes money by skipping all of that and externalizing the cost. I'm not against forcing Temu to follow EU regulations. I'm against this trumpian push for protectionism and changing of custom rules or straight-out ban under the guise of health and safety. > Temu does exactly none of that. I would say it's arguable since Temu also has returns and often european retailers are selling same exact goods from same factory. However assuming you are correct, in you mind does it justify a 10 eur markup on a 2 eur wine-opener by esselunga? It would serve our interests if we redirect a fraction of this outrage on temu/shein on our domestic inefficient retailers since it would motivate them to improve their own logistics and improve supply chain efficiency.