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Maybe this is a good place to post it because its about religion. I didn't think you could have 2 existential crisis, but I did. First one was Religion -> Agno

Maybe this is a good place to post it because its about religion. I didn't think you could have 2 existential crisis, but I did. First one was Religion -> Agnosticism... Second was: Platonic Realism to Pragmatism. I used to think there was something special about circles/Pi, I thought there was some force of nature that caused Capitalism, Darwinism, and IR Realism to win... No, these platonic forms/universals don't actually exist. I hear people talk about Love, Happiness, and Justice like there is a perfection available to us humans. They are under the platonic religion. Today I realize these are constructs of human language, from Pi to Justice, there is no universal. Monism is a religion. I highly recommend William James's Pragmatism. Its only a 2.5 hour audiobook and it basically created the idea of metaphilosophy.

1718627440 1y ago
But Pi seams to be a property of the universe, because it's occurring in a lot of statements about behaviours of the universe? There is a longing in people for love, happiness and justice which seams to be universal through the earth population? And people think they would like it if the world was more like that, so they try to influence others so that it is more like that, what's wrong with that? Some people conclude that there must be an origin for that desire outside of humans and that gets the name god. So I don't know what you mean? Where do you conclude from that this is not real?
- resource_waste 1y ago
  >Pi seams to be a property of the universe If you also agree 1 = 1 is a property of the universe, sure... But these are really just linguistic notations stacked upon each other until statements like 2pir = c are true. I can write plenty of other true statements, I can make some strange irregular shape and prove the area of it. >There is a longing in people for love, happiness and justice which seams to be universal through the earth population? At a minimum moral relativism, between cultures, people, eras, organizations vs individuals seems absolutely true. At one point, being a pirate was honorable because it helped your community.
  - 1718627440 1y ago
    Sure mathematical expressions are expressions of a language, but the name of constants and how we describe them, isn't what matters. It's the fact that a shape that has perfect symmetry in infinite directions, the effects of same weather phenomena we called lightning and the limit on information propagation (and million other things I just forgot about) all have a thing in common. And all this is totally unrelated from our perception or even the existence of humans. > just linguistic notations stacked upon each other until statements like 2*pi*r = c are true. You can totally make sound linguistic notations, that just have no grounding in reality. It seams like you think it's only about the linguistic statement, but the language is invented to describe something that exists outside of it.
    - resource_waste 1y ago
      You find a circle interesting. Do you also find ovals interesting? You find lightning interesting, but do you find a few atoms blowing in the wind interesting? Why are some things more interesting than others?
      - 1718627440 1y ago
        > You find a circle interesting. Yes, but finding something interesting is a thing that humans do, that's only relevant here if humans are the study object. > Do you also find ovals interesting? Yeah they are quite like a circle, but not exactly. Also why do planets "know" how to move? Why isn't it random? > do you find a few atoms blowing in the wind interesting? If have the time and the means to study them and I can learn something through that, then sure? > Why are some things more interesting than others? To us humans? Because some things are more accessible than others, some things are more generalisable than others, some things are more useful than others. Humans are curious, they like to know properties about things. Why? I have no explanation grounded in natural-science, (only in economics, behavioral science and religion). But that doesn't matter, because these properties stay true no matter what we do. Humans can't know them all, because we are finite and only have access to limited resources. It's just that these things exist. And they behave. And they are describable by descriptions that are way simpler then they are large. These are complex systems and they are describable by a single number. That's what makes pi special.
brid 1y ago
Perfection is available to us. Jesus Christ is the way; the Incarnation is the bridge. God became man (taking on like nature) so that we could become like Him and participate in His divine nature.
dr_dshiv 1y ago
But within any civilization that develops within the more than hundred billion plus galaxies (or even within the uncountable number of simulated universes), they’d discover circles, spheres, triangles, the Platonic solids, normal distributions, etc. The notation and ascribed meaning will vary — but civilizations will likely discover natural numbers and specifically binary numbers and even use them (at least for some time in their development) for computation. Basic operations would also likely be discovered - just as they were on different sides of our own planet. There would also be cybernetic feedback loops, where goals are measured and optimized for—- that’s a sort of platonic form. These intelligible forms seem more basic to life and intelligence than even carbon or water. Super happy to hear arguments otherwise!
- resource_waste 1y ago
  What makes circles more special than a bunch of crumbs? Humans decided circles are interesting. I am not denying analytical philosophy doesnt make true statements, but rather that there isnt anything mystical about these true statements. They are constructs of human language. There was no God that typed pi=3.14, but rather humans made 2pir = c true by developing a linguistical logic system where we have radius = 1 and c= 6.28.
  - tanderson92 1y ago
    This isn't true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoperimetric_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoperimetric_inequality
    - resource_waste 1y ago
      I'm not sure what point you are making. This is language too.
  - dr_dshiv 1y ago
    My argument is that ALL civilizations will discover circles. They aren’t human arbitrary. They are discoverable mathematical forms.

1718627440 1y ago

But Pi seams to be a property of the universe, because it's occurring in a lot of statements about behaviours of the universe? There is a longing in people for love, happiness and justice which seams to be universal through the earth population? And people think they would like it if the world was more like that, so they try to influence others so that it is more like that, what's wrong with that? Some people conclude that there must be an origin for that desire outside of humans and that gets the name god. So I don't know what you mean? Where do you conclude from that this is not real?

resource_waste 1y ago
>Pi seams to be a property of the universe If you also agree 1 = 1 is a property of the universe, sure... But these are really just linguistic notations stacked upon each other until statements like 2pir = c are true. I can write plenty of other true statements, I can make some strange irregular shape and prove the area of it. >There is a longing in people for love, happiness and justice which seams to be universal through the earth population? At a minimum moral relativism, between cultures, people, eras, organizations vs individuals seems absolutely true. At one point, being a pirate was honorable because it helped your community.
- 1718627440 1y ago
  Sure mathematical expressions are expressions of a language, but the name of constants and how we describe them, isn't what matters. It's the fact that a shape that has perfect symmetry in infinite directions, the effects of same weather phenomena we called lightning and the limit on information propagation (and million other things I just forgot about) all have a thing in common. And all this is totally unrelated from our perception or even the existence of humans. > just linguistic notations stacked upon each other until statements like 2*pi*r = c are true. You can totally make sound linguistic notations, that just have no grounding in reality. It seams like you think it's only about the linguistic statement, but the language is invented to describe something that exists outside of it.
  - resource_waste 1y ago
    You find a circle interesting. Do you also find ovals interesting? You find lightning interesting, but do you find a few atoms blowing in the wind interesting? Why are some things more interesting than others?
    - 1718627440 1y ago
      > You find a circle interesting. Yes, but finding something interesting is a thing that humans do, that's only relevant here if humans are the study object. > Do you also find ovals interesting? Yeah they are quite like a circle, but not exactly. Also why do planets "know" how to move? Why isn't it random? > do you find a few atoms blowing in the wind interesting? If have the time and the means to study them and I can learn something through that, then sure? > Why are some things more interesting than others? To us humans? Because some things are more accessible than others, some things are more generalisable than others, some things are more useful than others. Humans are curious, they like to know properties about things. Why? I have no explanation grounded in natural-science, (only in economics, behavioral science and religion). But that doesn't matter, because these properties stay true no matter what we do. Humans can't know them all, because we are finite and only have access to limited resources. It's just that these things exist. And they behave. And they are describable by descriptions that are way simpler then they are large. These are complex systems and they are describable by a single number. That's what makes pi special.

brid 1y ago

Perfection is available to us. Jesus Christ is the way; the Incarnation is the bridge. God became man (taking on like nature) so that we could become like Him and participate in His divine nature.

dr_dshiv 1y ago

But within any civilization that develops within the more than hundred billion plus galaxies (or even within the uncountable number of simulated universes), they’d discover circles, spheres, triangles, the Platonic solids, normal distributions, etc. The notation and ascribed meaning will vary — but civilizations will likely discover natural numbers and specifically binary numbers and even use them (at least for some time in their development) for computation. Basic operations would also likely be discovered - just as they were on different sides of our own planet. There would also be cybernetic feedback loops, where goals are measured and optimized for—- that’s a sort of platonic form. These intelligible forms seem more basic to life and intelligence than even carbon or water. Super happy to hear arguments otherwise!

resource_waste 1y ago
What makes circles more special than a bunch of crumbs? Humans decided circles are interesting. I am not denying analytical philosophy doesnt make true statements, but rather that there isnt anything mystical about these true statements. They are constructs of human language. There was no God that typed pi=3.14, but rather humans made 2pir = c true by developing a linguistical logic system where we have radius = 1 and c= 6.28.
- tanderson92 1y ago
  This isn't true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoperimetric_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoperimetric_inequality
  - resource_waste 1y ago
    I'm not sure what point you are making. This is language too.
- dr_dshiv 1y ago
  My argument is that ALL civilizations will discover circles. They aren’t human arbitrary. They are discoverable mathematical forms.