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It is not about "the criminals", it is about control. They want you to self-censor "wrongthink" in any space. The rise of totalitairianism in the EU is very re

It is not about "the criminals", it is about control. They want you to self-censor "wrongthink" in any space. The rise of totalitairianism in the EU is very real.

ekianjo 1y ago
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- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
geertj 1y ago
Yes, 100%. I grew up in Europe, and have been in the US for the last 10+ years, with all of my family still in Europe. I think this gives me reasonable feel for the "situation on the ground." The best way I can describe my social circles in the US and EU is that in the US, we still have "principled freedom", where there (still) is a majority of people that understand the original ideas of the founding fathers, and can imagine that things could theoretically be different (the word used for this is "tyranny", which sounded super weird when I first came here). In EU, I see a total disconnect with any foundational principles or values. Worse is that the population would 100% disagree with you on this, but when you probe "what are these values and why are they there," you get mostly circular reasoning based on some neo-liberal viewpoints. Furthermore, people just can't imagine ever losing their freedoms. This makes Europe essentially like the frog in the pot on the stove. If you mention the word "tyranny" to Europeans, they basically think you're a crackpot. I have seen things change a teeny bit with the war in Ukraine, where folks get at least somewhat concerned, but the concerns are still about an external boogyman. Nowhere is there any realization that big government, with a lot of unelected bureaucrats, typically becomes the enemy of the people because "power corrupts."
- saubeidl 1y ago
  I feel like this is an absurd position to take when people are literally being snatched off the street and being sent to torture camps in the US. The tyranny is much closer there than in the EU.
  - geertj 1y ago
    > I feel like this is an absurd position to take when people are literally being snatched off the street and being sent to torture camps in the US. That is of course a gross misrepresentation of what is happening (and I'm being charitable here).
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      You're either poorly informed or are purposefully spreading misinformation then. Re being dragged off: https://www.al.com/news/mobile/2025/05/alabama-worker-says-ice-dragged-him-from-job-despite-being-us-citizen-color-of-our-skin-has-become-a-crime.html https://www.al.com/news/mobile/2025/05/alabama-worker-says-i... Re torture: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/alligator-alcatraz-florida-detainees-conditions-fungus-mosquitoes-rcna220205 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/alligator-alcatraz-flor...
      - geertj 1y ago
        If you'd stop the ad-hominems and suggestions of malice you'd more effectively make your case. I'm not going to play this game of me investing my time in random links posted to this discussion, but as a once time exception: - The first link claims a man got detained where ICE thought he had a fake ID but where he was actually a citizen. From the article: "It is not clear where the construction is located and efforts to find contact information for Venegas were not successful. Efforts to reach ICE representatives for comment were not immediately successful." So we have an unsubstantiated claim in an online publication. Is it true? Maybe. If it is, then the worst claimed here is that someone one detained. Not even arrested, let alone anything worse than that. This certainly does not rise to the claims you're making. If the article is true, this is likely an operational mistake that was corrected soon afterwards. - The second link claims that the mosquitoes in a new temporary detention facility amount to torture. Do I like the optics of the facility? No. Do I want people in detention to get treated with dignity? Of course. The claim of torture is quite extraordinary though. If the facility is not up to standards, I have trust in the system that it will get closed.

It is not about "the criminals", it is about control. They want you to self-censor "wrongthink" in any space. The rise of totalitairianism in the EU is very real.

ekianjo 1y ago

[flagged]

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

geertj 1y ago

Yes, 100%. I grew up in Europe, and have been in the US for the last 10+ years, with all of my family still in Europe. I think this gives me reasonable feel for the "situation on the ground." The best way I can describe my social circles in the US and EU is that in the US, we still have "principled freedom", where there (still) is a majority of people that understand the original ideas of the founding fathers, and can imagine that things could theoretically be different (the word used for this is "tyranny", which sounded super weird when I first came here). In EU, I see a total disconnect with any foundational principles or values. Worse is that the population would 100% disagree with you on this, but when you probe "what are these values and why are they there," you get mostly circular reasoning based on some neo-liberal viewpoints. Furthermore, people just can't imagine ever losing their freedoms. This makes Europe essentially like the frog in the pot on the stove. If you mention the word "tyranny" to Europeans, they basically think you're a crackpot. I have seen things change a teeny bit with the war in Ukraine, where folks get at least somewhat concerned, but the concerns are still about an external boogyman. Nowhere is there any realization that big government, with a lot of unelected bureaucrats, typically becomes the enemy of the people because "power corrupts."

saubeidl 1y ago
I feel like this is an absurd position to take when people are literally being snatched off the street and being sent to torture camps in the US. The tyranny is much closer there than in the EU.
- geertj 1y ago
  > I feel like this is an absurd position to take when people are literally being snatched off the street and being sent to torture camps in the US. That is of course a gross misrepresentation of what is happening (and I'm being charitable here).
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    You're either poorly informed or are purposefully spreading misinformation then. Re being dragged off: https://www.al.com/news/mobile/2025/05/alabama-worker-says-ice-dragged-him-from-job-despite-being-us-citizen-color-of-our-skin-has-become-a-crime.html https://www.al.com/news/mobile/2025/05/alabama-worker-says-i... Re torture: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/alligator-alcatraz-florida-detainees-conditions-fungus-mosquitoes-rcna220205 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/alligator-alcatraz-flor...
    - geertj 1y ago
      If you'd stop the ad-hominems and suggestions of malice you'd more effectively make your case. I'm not going to play this game of me investing my time in random links posted to this discussion, but as a once time exception: - The first link claims a man got detained where ICE thought he had a fake ID but where he was actually a citizen. From the article: "It is not clear where the construction is located and efforts to find contact information for Venegas were not successful. Efforts to reach ICE representatives for comment were not immediately successful." So we have an unsubstantiated claim in an online publication. Is it true? Maybe. If it is, then the worst claimed here is that someone one detained. Not even arrested, let alone anything worse than that. This certainly does not rise to the claims you're making. If the article is true, this is likely an operational mistake that was corrected soon afterwards. - The second link claims that the mosquitoes in a new temporary detention facility amount to torture. Do I like the optics of the facility? No. Do I want people in detention to get treated with dignity? Of course. The claim of torture is quite extraordinary though. If the facility is not up to standards, I have trust in the system that it will get closed.