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You are framing it as if the problem is Hamas and the existence of Hamas. Isn't the existence of Hamas only strengthened by the war, by the actions of Israel ?

You are framing it as if the problem is Hamas and the existence of Hamas. Isn't the existence of Hamas only strengthened by the war, by the actions of Israel ? I would argue that the October 7 attack was highly beneficial for the expansionist plans of Israel. Highly beneficial for Netanyahu, who now can stay in power under martial law instead of fearing prosecution for his previous crimes. Hamas will not magically cease to exist when Palestinians are treated like that. Imagine the amount of hate that is brewed against Israel again right now. Would you ever forget or forgive if as a child you were starved, and witnessed endless horrors ? Your city in shambles, rubble and blood everywhere, death and misery wherever you look at ?

epolanski 1y ago
Let's quote Netanyahu himself in 2019, at a party meeting: > Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."
sudopluto 1y ago
The Germans did, because they love their children more than they hate their enemies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_German...
- ashoeafoot 1y ago
  actually they didn't https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturm https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturm they heil-hitler-hamased to the bitter end. They just had a working state with working institutions that carried on, prussian, protestant bureaucracy carrying on even after the die hard nazis had died out. Islamic culture is unable to produce these institutions .
  - sudopluto 1y ago
    I mean I was trying to show that the Germans don't suicide bomb busses in Kaliningrad even after their own much worse version of the Nakba. In general, most losers of wars, especially of wars of aggression that they themselves started, don't spend then next century suicide bombing and turning down deals that they deem beneath them. They take what they can get and get on with their lives, being productive and improving the future for their children.
- 4gotunameagain 1y ago
  These are very, very different situations. You are comparing nations and cultures that have be living side by side for thousands of years to a 77 year old state (Israel) occupying territory that has been Palestinean for thousands of years. Israel and Ozzy Osbourne were born on the same year. People that were born after Ozzy, can no longer return to their birthplace, because it is now Israel and they are besieged in Gaza.
  - sudopluto 1y ago
    Not really Palestinian to be fair. Jewish, Greek, Roman, Islamic, Ottoman, and finally British, in that order. Palestinians then started a war of aggression to prevent the establishment of a Jewish state, and then lost that war. You can not lose what you never had. If you want to talk about occupying, why is the al-aqsa mosque built where it was, if not for trying to erase native ties to the land?
    - tdeck 1y ago
      > If you want to talk about occupying, why is the al-aqsa mosque built where it was, if not for trying to erase native ties to the land? The second temple was destroyed in 70 CE and the first Al Aqsa mosque was likely built in 600s. What is your argument here? Both religions share a common lineage so it's not unusual that Islam would revere the same location as an older religion with the same origin story.
      - YZF 1y ago
        It's a statement. Jerusalem is a lot less significant to Muslims than to Jews. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Islamic_places_of_worship_into_mosques https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Islamic_plac...
    - cogman10 1y ago
      Native ties? Who the do you think the Palestinians are? Did they just appear one day and occupied Palestine? The Palestinians are the natives of Palestine. They literally have direct ancetrial ties all the way back to the original Hebrew occupants. Like many people, they've been occupied, mixed, and they've adopted the religions and customs of their occupiers. That doesn't mean they've not been inhabiting the land for centuries. Are they less deserving of their ancetrial homes simply because European colonists decided they wanted a religious ethnostate? My family has ancetrial ties to Britain, do I get to go there and kick out someone from their home because of my ancetrial ties? Heck I likely have Roman ties, do I get to go to Italy to reclaim my birthright?
BigJ1211 1y ago
How do you not see this as circular reinforcement? Hamas justifies it's attacks by pointing to Israel, and Israel justifies it by pointing to Hamas. Things like Hamas still holding 50 hostages, rockets still being fired into Israel etc. Israel will not magically stop when Hamas still exists. > Imagine the amount of hate that is brewed against Israel again right now. Would you ever forget or forgive if as a child you were starved, and witnessed endless horrors ? Your city in shambles, rubble and blood everywhere, death and misery wherever you look at ? And so do attacks like October 7th. Of course Israelis want to get rid of Hamas. The majority of Israelis don't want to genocide the Gazans, but like you pointed out, Netanyahu and his goons do.
- oa335 1y ago
  > The majority of Israelis don't want to genocide the Gazans. According to a recent poll: Nearly half (47 percent) of respondents agreed that "when conquering an enemy city, the Israel Defense Forces should act as the Israelites did in Jericho under Joshua's command – killing all its inhabitants." 82 percent of respondents supported the expulsion of Gaza's residents 56 percent favored expelling Palestinian citizens of Israel https://archive.is/Fg4OX#selection-659.66-659.274 https://archive.is/Fg4OX#selection-659.66-659.274
YZF 1y ago
I think the argument that the use of violence to defeat an enemy only serves to create more enemy doesn't hold water. There are plenty of historical examples where brute force was used to bring an enemy to submission and that was more or less the end. We can go WW-II or we can look at more recent examples like Al Qaeda or ISIS or Chechnya. There are many more. No argument that the extreme right in Israel benefited from the Oct 7th attack. So far anyways. What exactly that means in terms of "expansion" remains to be seen. Isn't annexing the west bank and giving Palestinians Israeli citizenship the real solution anyways? Modulo trying to "convince" them to leave that's more or less the plan of the Israeli right. There was plenty of hate towards Israel before Oct 7th. The hate that manifested in Oct 7th was more or less unprecedented. I can't say there is more hate now. Check out some Gaza school textbooks from before Oct 7th. They raise their kids on hate (in UN funded schools). I also can't predict where things go from here. I think the shift that happened in Israel on Oct 7th is that Israel should not try to control or predict the intent of their enemies. Israel needs to take away the capacity of those opponents to attack Israel. You can see this in Lebanon where Israel is still hitting Hezbollah wherever they can. In the past Israel would worry about retaliation, now Israel is more worried about capabilities and is willing to deter retaliation through use of more force. Deterrence + removing capabilities. In Lebanon you could argue Lebanese would object to Israel bombing their country but some are happy that Hezbollah is getting decimated. The Palestinian authority and some Palestinians are happy that Israel is going after Hamas and PIJ militants aggressively in the west bank. Gaza is a very different story but they were also terrorized by Hamas. What things look like after the war - who knows. Hard to even say when this war ends and what that looks like. I would like to hope there is some better lives for everyone and peace but that seems very unrealistic. The western countries talking about a two state solution are smoking some good stuff.

epolanski 1y ago

Let's quote Netanyahu himself in 2019, at a party meeting: > Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy — to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."

sudopluto 1y ago

The Germans did, because they love their children more than they hate their enemies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_German...

ashoeafoot 1y ago
actually they didn't https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturm https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturm they heil-hitler-hamased to the bitter end. They just had a working state with working institutions that carried on, prussian, protestant bureaucracy carrying on even after the die hard nazis had died out. Islamic culture is unable to produce these institutions .
- sudopluto 1y ago
  I mean I was trying to show that the Germans don't suicide bomb busses in Kaliningrad even after their own much worse version of the Nakba. In general, most losers of wars, especially of wars of aggression that they themselves started, don't spend then next century suicide bombing and turning down deals that they deem beneath them. They take what they can get and get on with their lives, being productive and improving the future for their children.
4gotunameagain 1y ago
These are very, very different situations. You are comparing nations and cultures that have be living side by side for thousands of years to a 77 year old state (Israel) occupying territory that has been Palestinean for thousands of years. Israel and Ozzy Osbourne were born on the same year. People that were born after Ozzy, can no longer return to their birthplace, because it is now Israel and they are besieged in Gaza.
- sudopluto 1y ago
  Not really Palestinian to be fair. Jewish, Greek, Roman, Islamic, Ottoman, and finally British, in that order. Palestinians then started a war of aggression to prevent the establishment of a Jewish state, and then lost that war. You can not lose what you never had. If you want to talk about occupying, why is the al-aqsa mosque built where it was, if not for trying to erase native ties to the land?
  - tdeck 1y ago
    > If you want to talk about occupying, why is the al-aqsa mosque built where it was, if not for trying to erase native ties to the land? The second temple was destroyed in 70 CE and the first Al Aqsa mosque was likely built in 600s. What is your argument here? Both religions share a common lineage so it's not unusual that Islam would revere the same location as an older religion with the same origin story.
    - YZF 1y ago
      It's a statement. Jerusalem is a lot less significant to Muslims than to Jews. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Islamic_places_of_worship_into_mosques https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_non-Islamic_plac...
  - cogman10 1y ago
    Native ties? Who the do you think the Palestinians are? Did they just appear one day and occupied Palestine? The Palestinians are the natives of Palestine. They literally have direct ancetrial ties all the way back to the original Hebrew occupants. Like many people, they've been occupied, mixed, and they've adopted the religions and customs of their occupiers. That doesn't mean they've not been inhabiting the land for centuries. Are they less deserving of their ancetrial homes simply because European colonists decided they wanted a religious ethnostate? My family has ancetrial ties to Britain, do I get to go there and kick out someone from their home because of my ancetrial ties? Heck I likely have Roman ties, do I get to go to Italy to reclaim my birthright?

BigJ1211 1y ago

How do you not see this as circular reinforcement? Hamas justifies it's attacks by pointing to Israel, and Israel justifies it by pointing to Hamas. Things like Hamas still holding 50 hostages, rockets still being fired into Israel etc. Israel will not magically stop when Hamas still exists. > Imagine the amount of hate that is brewed against Israel again right now. Would you ever forget or forgive if as a child you were starved, and witnessed endless horrors ? Your city in shambles, rubble and blood everywhere, death and misery wherever you look at ? And so do attacks like October 7th. Of course Israelis want to get rid of Hamas. The majority of Israelis don't want to genocide the Gazans, but like you pointed out, Netanyahu and his goons do.

oa335 1y ago
> The majority of Israelis don't want to genocide the Gazans. According to a recent poll: Nearly half (47 percent) of respondents agreed that "when conquering an enemy city, the Israel Defense Forces should act as the Israelites did in Jericho under Joshua's command – killing all its inhabitants." 82 percent of respondents supported the expulsion of Gaza's residents 56 percent favored expelling Palestinian citizens of Israel https://archive.is/Fg4OX#selection-659.66-659.274 https://archive.is/Fg4OX#selection-659.66-659.274

YZF 1y ago

I think the argument that the use of violence to defeat an enemy only serves to create more enemy doesn't hold water. There are plenty of historical examples where brute force was used to bring an enemy to submission and that was more or less the end. We can go WW-II or we can look at more recent examples like Al Qaeda or ISIS or Chechnya. There are many more. No argument that the extreme right in Israel benefited from the Oct 7th attack. So far anyways. What exactly that means in terms of "expansion" remains to be seen. Isn't annexing the west bank and giving Palestinians Israeli citizenship the real solution anyways? Modulo trying to "convince" them to leave that's more or less the plan of the Israeli right. There was plenty of hate towards Israel before Oct 7th. The hate that manifested in Oct 7th was more or less unprecedented. I can't say there is more hate now. Check out some Gaza school textbooks from before Oct 7th. They raise their kids on hate (in UN funded schools). I also can't predict where things go from here. I think the shift that happened in Israel on Oct 7th is that Israel should not try to control or predict the intent of their enemies. Israel needs to take away the capacity of those opponents to attack Israel. You can see this in Lebanon where Israel is still hitting Hezbollah wherever they can. In the past Israel would worry about retaliation, now Israel is more worried about capabilities and is willing to deter retaliation through use of more force. Deterrence + removing capabilities. In Lebanon you could argue Lebanese would object to Israel bombing their country but some are happy that Hezbollah is getting decimated. The Palestinian authority and some Palestinians are happy that Israel is going after Hamas and PIJ militants aggressively in the west bank. Gaza is a very different story but they were also terrorized by Hamas. What things look like after the war - who knows. Hard to even say when this war ends and what that looks like. I would like to hope there is some better lives for everyone and peace but that seems very unrealistic. The western countries talking about a two state solution are smoking some good stuff.